Fishman Matrix Infinity, K&K Pure, or LR Baggs Anthem Pickup

[blueskyblue]

Hello all:

I haven't seen a thread on this in a few years, so I'm hoping I'm not repeating. I have a 1986 Alvarez Yairi 45N, and I'm getting a fret job on it and a pick-up installed. I play in a string band that also includes an accordion which tends to be pretty loud. The luthier loves installing the Fishman Matrix Infinity.

Is this a good choice if I want a natural acoustic sound for gigs?

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by blueskyblue

Hello all:

I haven't seen a thread on this in a few years, so I'm hoping I'm not repeating. I have a 1986 Alvarez Yairi 45N, and I'm getting a fret job on it and a pick-up installed. I play in a string band that also includes an accordion which tends to be pretty loud. The luthier loves installing the Fishman Matrix Infinity.

Is this a good choice if I want a natural acoustic sound for gigs?

Will try to lay out the pros and cons as I see them:

I honestly don't know why the Fishman Active Matrix Infinity is loved so much, it's really just a run of the mill UST that is not all that impressive. I recently ripped one out and replaced it with an LR Baggs Active Element (not even the Anthem, just the Element). The LR Baggs was much better at reproducing the natural acoustic tone. It was such a substantial difference my wife who is not a musician came in the room and said "wow, what did you do to that guitar".

Where the Fishman Active Matrix shines is when pared with a Aura Spectrum DI for modeling. When you put the two together you can get a very, very good reproduction of the natural acoustic sound with very low risk of feedback.

The LR Baggs Anthem is the most expensive option on the list, but it's my favorite. It combines the Element with an internal mic and provides a blend/crossover so you can bring focus on the Active Element when you want to cut through in a full band setting and push more to towards the internal mic when you're playing solo. Trade-off is that it's also the most invasive to install and many here feel it slightly alters the natural unplugged tone.

K&K Pure Mini (Passive) is a great option. I've played guitars with it installed but never owned one. Sounds great with a good external pre-amp, but be prepared to spend some money on the pre-amp. LR Baggs Para DI is a good choice, they go for around $190. The up-side is that you can experiment with different pre-amps to get the perfect tone and the K&K is probably the least invasive and less likely to impact the natural acoustic tone, the flip-side is you have to lug around the DI/pre-amp. There's also a K&K Pure Mini Active but I don't care for it much.

[blueskyblue]

I think the luthier thought that the Matrix was the best option for the around $250 installed price and, yes, the least invasive. But he said he could put whatever I wanted in there. I've heard that the Matrix Infinity is good for larger venues; when you turn the sound up, it doesn't give feedback. But I don't like tinny, electric-sounding pickups.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

Will try to lay out the pros and cons as I see them:

I honestly don't know why the Fishman Active Matrix Infinity is loved so much, it's really just a run of the mill UST that is not all that impressive. I recently ripped one out and replaced it with an LR Baggs Active Element (not even the Anthem, just the Element). The LR Baggs was much better at reproducing the natural acoustic tone. It was such a substantial difference my wife who is not a musician came in the room and said "wow, what did you do to that guitar".

Where the Fishman Active Matrix shines is when pared with a Aura Spectrum DI for modeling. When you put the two together you can get a very, very good reproduction of the natural acoustic sound with very low risk of feedback.

The LR Baggs Anthem is the most expensive option on the list, but it's my favorite. It combines the Element with an internal mic and provides a blend/crossover so you can bring focus on the Active Element when you want to cut through in a full band setting and push more to towards the internal mic when you're playing solo. Trade-off is that it's also the most invasive to install and many here feel it slightly alters the natural unplugged tone.

K&K Pure Mini (Passive) is a great option. I've played guitars with it installed but never owned one. Sounds great with a good external pre-amp, but be prepared to spend some money on the pre-amp. LR Baggs Para DI is a good choice, they go for around $190. The up-side is that you can experiment with different pre-amps to get the perfect tone and the K&K is probably the least invasive and less likely to impact the natural acoustic tone, the flip-side is you have to lug around the DI/pre-amp. There's also a K&K Pure Mini Active but I don't care for it much.

Hmm I don't know, the Baggs is just another UST that sounds like a UST. I actually find it has an unpleasing even more unnatural tone than the Matrix. It's just a distinct tone that's not as pleasing. I just can't see there being such a drastic difference between the two.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by blueskyblue

Hello all:

I haven't seen a thread on this in a few years, so I'm hoping I'm not repeating. I have a 1986 Alvarez Yairi 45N, and I'm getting a fret job on it and a pick-up installed. I play in a string band that also includes an accordion which tends to be pretty loud. The luthier loves installing the Fishman Matrix Infinity.

Is this a good choice if I want a natural acoustic sound for gigs?

No, IMO USTs generally suck, particularly for strumming and rhythm work in a string band. It is quite unnautural in terms of sonics as well as behavior.

If your performance situations can handle a single external microphone, that would be best. Absent that, a single SBT is a good choice, as are many dual source combinations (if you are willing to learn how to use them).

The remainder of your signal chain is quite important. Pay attention to that too.

[Methos1979]

I have experience with two of those mentioned - the K&K and the Fishman Matrix Infinity

I much prefer the K&K for it's sheer simplicity, no battery and excellent sound.

The Fishman sounded great and is a better bet if you're going to be playing in very loud venues as you'll have more feedback issues with a SBT than you will with a UST. But if you're a strummer you'll have to deal with the dreaded UST quack.

I would consider the Fishman to be more invasive than the K&K. You have drill out two holes (the bottom for the jack and the bridge saddle slot for the UST) then you have the volume/tone control to install as well as the battery pack. The Fishman does remove cleaner in that it will leave less behind when you pull everything out but I never remove pickups so that doesn't factor in for me.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Hmm I don't know, the Baggs is just another UST that sounds like a UST. I actually find it has an unpleasing even more unnatural tone than the Matrix. It's just a distinct tone that's not as pleasing. I just can't see there being such a drastic difference between the two.

It probably depends on the guitar and namely the type of saddle material. I've heard from many here that the Active Element sounded poorly with a bone saddle, but those using TUSQ seem to have a very different experience. (my experience was with a TUSQ saddle). There may be a technical reason for this. Unlike the Fishman Matrix and every other UST I know of, the LR Baggs Active Element does not utilize pressure but instead picks up on vibrations... I don't understand the technical ends and outs of how that makes it different, but they do have patents you can search and find that detail how it is.

I've started putting a mic in front of the guitar and blending that with the Active Element when playing solo. When playing with drummer and bass just using the Element. Works ok, there are better solutions. If I could afford an Anthem in every guitar that would be nice but having the same pickup in every guitar is kind of boring.

When I've sampled recording direct with the Element (something I'd never actually do for real recording purposes with any pickup), it sounds very close to the soundcloud sample LR Baggs has on the product page here
http://www.lrbaggs.net/pickups/eleme...-guitar-pickup

[blueskyblue]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

No, IMO USTs generally suck, particularly for strumming and rhythm work in a string band. It is quite unnautural in terms of sonics as well as behavior.

If your performance situations can handle a single external microphone, that would be best. Absent that, a single SBT is a good choice, as are many dual source combinations (if you are willing to learn how to use them).

The remainder of your signal chain is quite important. Pay attention to that too.

That's a fascinating take. I'm a super aggressive strummer on many of the songs we play--they sort of have a klezmer feel to them--but I do heavy picking on others, nothing fancy, just a lot of hammering and some sliding. My frustration with my Shure 57 instrument mic is threefold:

1. I'm glued to the spot, so I can't move around at all, especially when I take a break from vocals during instrumental breaks.

2. Since nearly everyone else in the band has pick-ups, I often sound the softest and can't hear myself, particularly on the more folk-style songs I sing. And I have no control from the stage over the mic level, so I can't turn it up for softer picking songs and turn it down for super strummer songs.

3. I've had issues with feedback from mics before. My band has six people who sing, so we've got a TON of mics already, and we've got problems with feedback frequently. Also: packing and unpacking mics is a drag.

That said, I do like that I sound a bit more blended with the band for more of the rhythm strumming songs. And I like that I can step back from the mic and let the band or another instrument come to the front.

[blueskyblue]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

I have experience with two of those mentioned - the K&K and the Fishman Matrix Infinity

But if you're a strummer you'll have to deal with the dreaded UST quack.

Um, I sort of hate to ask but. . . what is the dreaded UST quack?

[blueskyblue]

Also: I do a whole lot of muted heavy strumming for rhythm--we have no drummer--so I also wonder what that's going to sound like with pickups like the Fishman Matrix Infinity.

[JayBee1404]

You won't get 'UST quack' from a K&K, primarily because it's not a UST.

The K&K is a great under-soundboard transducer (as distinct from an Under-Saddle-Transducer) which will benefit from the use of an impedance-matched external pre-amp. K&K have several models which, of course, are designed to perfectly match the output impedance of their pickup, but there are others which are just as good, possibly better - the Orchid Mutable DI and the Orchid Acoustic Pre-Amp being two. I've also heard of players using the Tonebone PZ-Pre and others.

The important thing to bear in mind when choosing a pre-amp for use with a K&K is that the output impedance of the pickup is 1 Megohm, and the input impedance of the pre-amp should be the same or very close. For this reason, and contrary to what someone said up-thread, the Baggs Para-DI (input impedance 10 Megohm - ten times too high for the K&K) is NOT a suitable pre-amp, and using it will result in bloated bass and bad tonal response.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Lots of good advice so far.

The K&K provides the most "acoustic true" amplification of your choices, but it is also the most feedback prone. It is quite difficult to use the K&K Pure Mini pickup in loud band situations, especially on small stages.

On a loud stage, I think your best bet for good acoustic reproduction without the hassle of feedback risk is a high quality passive soundhole pickup (DiMarzio Angel [my personal favoriote], Sunrise, Baggs M1 Passive) coupled with a high quality pre-amp (Fire Eye Red-Eye).

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

It probably depends on the guitar and namely the type of saddle material. I've heard from many here that the Active Element sounded poorly with a bone saddle, but those using TUSQ seem to have a very different experience. (my experience was with a TUSQ saddle). There may be a technical reason for this. Unlike the Fishman Matrix and every other UST I know of, the LR Baggs Active Element does not utilize pressure but instead picks up on vibrations... I don't understand the technical ends and outs of how that makes it different, but they do have patents you can search and find that detail how it is.

I've started putting a mic in front of the guitar and blending that with the Active Element when playing solo. When playing with drummer and bass just using the Element. Works ok, there are better solutions. If I could afford an Anthem in every guitar that would be nice but having the same pickup in every guitar is kind of boring.

When I've sampled recording direct with the Element (something I'd never actually do for real recording purposes with any pickup), it sounds very close to the soundcloud sample LR Baggs has on the product page here
http://www.lrbaggs.net/pickups/eleme...-guitar-pickup

The odd thing with the Element is that it's a softer material than the Matrix and it's supposed to pickup more vibrations. However, I actually find it sounds more unnatural than the Matrix. It has this unnatural high end/presence that cannot be dialled out. Hard to explain but a very unique tone. I have the Anthem Sl in my Taylor and I a tempted to rip it out. Sounds very nice but my guitar hasn't sounded the same unplugged since installing it. I really believe that the Element has a negative impact on the tone. I remember reading a quote from an LR Baggs employee who confirmed it as well. He mentioned it being a bit of a trade off. I think if I had a really warm and fat sounding guitar then I probably wouldn't notice the change in the unplugged tone as much but my Taylor is already bright so the Anthem has robbed it off some warmth creating a thinner tone.

[jonfields45]

I've gigged with the Matrix, Element, and Pure. Floor monitors without some significant bass cut (meaning crummy sounding) will cause feedback problems with the K&K at even modest stage volumes. Playing in an ensemble or a noisy venue (bar/restaurant) the nuances the K&K can reproduce will be lost. If you don't always play into a PA/amp you own, I found the K&K on occasion hard to tame. I would go with the Matrix if you think you might be interested in an Aura outboard processor for solo work at some point. I am currently gigging with an Element (actually MiSi Trio) and think the tone is more than acceptable for solo work, but I primarily gig in a duo at noisy venues. I don't have a preference in the Matrix vs. Element contest, but the better Aura compatibility would tilt Matrix for me, but if no battery is important, then the MiSi version of the Element is my choice today.

For quiet solo work where you use your own PA/Amp I vote K&K.

If bullet proof reproducible tone (that might not be absolutely ideal) in noisy environments and/or floor monitors with the FOH EQ (more or less), go UST. Go Matrix for future Aura compatibility if that is important to you.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I've gigged with the Matrix, Element, and Pure. Floor monitors without some significant bass cut (meaning crummy sounding) will cause feedback problems with the K&K at even modest stage volumes. Playing in an ensemble or a noisy venue (bar/restaurant) the nuances the K&K can reproduce will be lost. If you don't always play into a PA/amp you own, I found the K&K on occasion hard to tame. I would go with the Matrix if you think you might be interested in an Aura outboard processor for solo work at some point. I am currently gigging with an Element (actually MiSi Trio) and think the tone is more than acceptable for solo work, but I primarily gig in a duo at noisy venues. I don't have a preference in the Matrix vs. Element contest, but the better Aura compatibility would tilt Matrix for me, but if no battery is important, than the MiSi version of the Element is my choice today.

For quiet solo work where you use your own PA/Amp I vote K&K.

If bullet proof reproducible tone (that might not be absolutely ideal) in noisy environments and/or floor monitors with the FOH EQ (more or less), go UST. Go Matrix for future Aura compatibility if that is important to you.

Will just support that the Matrix sounds much better through the Aura. I found the Baggs Active Element tone unusable with the Aura Spectrum DI. All the built in images sounded too metallic but I also have an old Martin "thin line" UST that works great with the Aura, so I don't think you have to have a Matrix UST with it... There's just something different about the Baggs Element. Since all other UST rely on pressure and the Element does something different, I'm guessing that's what it is but I have a very small sample set so won't say that's definitive.