Who has a rig they can run almost dry ... (i.e. no pedals) ...

[janmulder]

... and what is it?

There are couple of threads that led me to this question. One asking our thoughts on using effects and another looking at pros and cons of Lyric pickups.

Then there was this post ...

Originally Posted by simondylan

I have found some guitars that just amplify more easily no matter what pickup they have for example, I have a friend who has a Martin D-18 and a Gibson Dove, that are each just really smooth regardless of the pickup and they need very little EQ. Between myself and another friend we have a few guitars that all need very specialized and quite extreme EQ curves, regardless of the pickup they have.

I would love to own at least one guitar that I could just plug in and play without having to add any pedals and I wonder, for those of you who are able to do this, what your guitar/pickup combination is. The only pre-requisite is that it has to sound natural so I think UST systems are probably out.

For a long time I thought that maybe I'd have to resort to a Maton or Cole Clark but I'd be interested in other combinations. I know 'good' sound and 'natural' are subjective and it is also highly probable that if one person combines guitar and pickup, someone else might find the exact same combination doesn't work ... but I think it would interesting to see what's out there.

At the moment I have a guitar with a Lyric pickup as my main axe ... I love the sound I can get but hate the fact that I always have to carry another bag with EQ and preamp pedal.

[Psalad]

I've played the lyric without a preamp at open mics. Only once had a problem, that was the sound guy who couldn't figure out why it sounded like his microphone was picking up the guitar.. because the lyric IS a microphone.

Same with my K&K system. I played it many times, sans preamp and eq, both at open mics and gigs. At bigger gigs I played it through my acoustic amp, but it just took a little low end rolloff and I'm set.

Personally... I think people make far too big of a matter over acoustic guitar sound, preamps, and EQs. Sure you can improve the sound, but guess what? People are more interested in the songs than the details of your acoustic guitar tone.

[stephenT]

I can play my two guitars w/ Sunrise pickups into my Schertler Jam 400 or any PA, whatever without pedals or preamp and get a balanced sound that needs nothing.

I do like using the Sunrise buffer box for an ever better sound but it can be optional.

Originally Posted by Psalad

Personally... I think people make far too big of a matter over acoustic guitar sound, preamps, and EQs. Sure you can improve the sound, but guess what? People are more interested in the songs than the details of your acoustic guitar tone.

True to an extent but I find I play better when I like the sound of my rig, so ultimately I do the work for myself. That said, we always get compliments on our guitar sound so someone is paying attention out in the audience.

[akafloyd]

I usually play my K&K equipped guitars straight into an amp or through a simple DI to a mixer. If I'm plugging into a mixer with a fixed 2.5K mid I don't get the best tone control, so it's nice to have good eq available. The way I see it is that these things (tone controls and eq pedals) exist for good reasons and we ought to use them to get the sound we want.

[janmulder]

Originally Posted by Psalad

Personally... I think people make far too big of a matter over acoustic guitar sound, preamps, and EQs.

I think, in a similar vein, that many people don't pay enough attention to their sound. I hate going to a concert where the instruments sound bad. Sure, it's not the show, but to me it shows lack of attention to detail and these days there is little excuse for it. Great if they have a good sound out of the box ... not if they don't.

Originally Posted by Psalad

Sure you can improve the sound, but guess what? People are more interested in the songs than the details of your acoustic guitar tone.

I want my guitar to sound good to me ... if, while I'm playing, I don't like the sound of the guitar then it affects my playing in a negative way.

Originally Posted by talkgtr

I can play my two guitars w/ Sunrise pickups into my Schertler Jam 400 or any PA, whatever without pedals or preamp and get a balanced sound that needs nothing.

I wonder if this a magnetic pickup thing ... they sound balanced out of the box and can do so on a wider range of guitars. My problem with them is I'd want to blend them with something as I don't really like the sound of most mags ... I prefer a little more 'acoustic' sounding ... hence my gravitation towards Lyric and K&K ... but, so far, the guitars I've put them in needed a great deal of EQ to make them sound natural.

Having said that, I've heard many great things about the Sunrise so maybe I need to investigate this further.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dakedi

... and what is it?

Hi Dakedi...

All 4 of my acoustics are outfitted with passive K&K dual source rigs (K&K Pure Mini plus internal mic). I then process the sound with external blender/preamps.

I run my dry, not almost dry. Not even a touch of reverb other than what a room lends. But I still want/need a preamp (to power the mic if for no other reason).

And even your definition of 'dry' is not if you allow the PA tech to adjust your tone in the house. You are just substituting his preamps for yours.

If you don't want to contend with batteries, or pedals, a simple K&K Pure mini run passively can produce good tone; almost any preamp makes it better, but the K&K Pure mini's passive signal would be hot enough and if there is enough adjustment on the board and/or amp, you will be good to go.

[MaurysMusic]

I can run my OM-28V's Trance Audio Amulet M direct to the PA if need be, but I prefer going through 1 pedal: the Radial PZ deluxe, for its boost function and phase switch.

[cat_guitar]

If you can live with the electric sound of a magnetic pickup, I suggest using an active one with adjustable pole pieces. You can adjust the string-to-string balance to your taste and minimize the need of EQ. Also you can use different string gauges to change your tone. A lighter gauge usually means a thinner tone. If that still doesn't work, you can trying moving the position of the magnetic pickup. Installing it on the bridge side gives you a slightly brighter tone.

There are other advantages of magnetic pickups. It's basically the most feedback resistant among the four common types of pickups, so you don't need a phase switch or notch filter in most cases. And remember it only picks up the sound of the strings so you'll get very consistent results no matter which guitar you're going to use.

I'm using a DiMarzio Angel pickup and I'm very happy with it.

Eddy

[janmulder]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Dakedi...

All 4 of my acoustics are outfitted with passive K&K dual source rigs (K&K Pure Mini plus internal mic). I then process the sound with external blender/preamps.

Hi Larry, what guitars are they and do they sound good without external blender/preamp? I'm looking for combinations that will sound good just using amp or PA adjustment (eq and or reverb) ... maybe just one simple outbox but it should be small and battery powered.

Originally Posted by cat_guitar

If you can live with the electric sound of a magnetic pickup, I suggest using an active one with adjustable pole pieces. You can adjust the string-to-string balance to your taste and minimize the need of EQ.

Sorry ... don't really like a mag on its own. I'm really trying to learn about more natural sounding combinations ... something that sounds like an acoustic guitar ... it doesn't have to be my guitar only louder but it should sound nice and should sound acoustic.

Originally Posted by MaurysMusic

I can run my OM-28V's Trance Audio Amulet M direct to the PA if need be, but I prefer going through 1 pedal: the Radial PZ deluxe, for its boost function and phase switch.

Thanks ... this is the sort of info I was hoping for. I'll try to find your review on Youtube.

--//--

Please post pickup AND guitar info ... i.e. the whole combination. For example, I know K&K sometimes needs EQ and sometimes not ... so I'm trying to see which guitars it doesn't need any. Basically, I'm just trying to get a feel for good guitar/pickup combinations that are plug and play into an amp or pa with preferably just a cable but at most a small pre/di like the PADI or Redeye.

Like MaurysMusic's Trance Audio Amulet M into OM-28V.

[drumstrummer]

My two rigs that need no added "help" are my Seagull Artist Studio fitted with K&K Pure Mini into a RedEye, and '99 Taylor 714ce with the old Fishman blender. The Taylor sounds truly amazing unplugged, and with the dual-source Fishman it is the best sounding plugged-in guitar I've ever owned or played.

[alohachris]

Aloha Friends,

The better the quality, the more planned & the more complete your live signal chain is, the more able you'll be able to achieve any sound you'd like to create in any space, wet/dry or, whatever. Always having the right tools is essential for a gigger to achieve the sound he/she wants. Sure, the music, skill & how you sell it is most important to your audience. But the quality & control of your live amplified acoustic sound is very important to YOU. Putting together the right live rig will satisfy both. My live rig actually inspires me to better performances.

I often do not use FX & play "dry" with my current rig, usually in quieter, mellower venues. Depends on the room, crowd, type of gig & music. When I use FX, it's usually very light reverbs or combo's, with a few exceptions.

BTW, I also do not have any noise-adding or sound-compressing pedals among my gear.

I use higher quality, complementary, rack-mounted electronics in my live signal chain: K&K Mini P/U-AKG 416 internal mic combo - Pendulum SPS-1 module & rack preamp - TC Electronics M-2000 stereo FX unit - Parasound 2125 power amp - Custom Koa Daedalus 803 3-way mini-PA speakers. All quite easy to move & set up as the SPS-1, M-2000 & 2125 are in an Odyssey BR418 4-rack space rack bag with wheels & handle & remain wired all the time.

Sometimes I travel light, & only bring the SPS-1 endpin module w/ modded cable to a party or someone else's gig. I plug that into two channels of someone else's board & EQ, blend & sum from there - that is, if I trust the sound guy & like the mixer. If I don't, then I bring the SPS-1 module & rack unit, plus the FX unit in a small, two space, over-the-shoulder rack bag for more control & the quality I'm used to. I plug into their rig without taking my full rig & still have control.

As a mostly solo gigger for over 50 years, I've always tried to bring the right set of tools for a given gig/venue, never more than is required. I always have more gear in reserve (in my car) just in case I need it (ex's: a small Soundcraft EFX-8 mixer for more channels if players show up to jam, & keeping a Duncan Magmic soundhole magnetic P/U in my bag to slap in on the spot if it gets "electric loud" onstage at a jam or blues party - rarely). Always be prepared for the inevitable changes at gigs too. Like when a small, intimate setting turns into a rowdy birthday party looking to dance. Ya don't want to be under-tooled for that occasion, like stuck there with a lunchbox amp alone.

The business of amplifying an acoustic guitar WELL to be played & sound WELL in a variety of spaces & gig situations nightly is something that by nature, cannot be done simply. I've provided lotsa examples here over the years. Still, the lure of amplifying a $500-2000+ guitar with $100-200 worth of entry-level gear still beguiles many players. I'm here to tell you, that cannot be done WELL, especially if you plan to be an almost nightly gigger in many spaces for a long time as I have. And without the right control mechanisms like great EQ - forget it - resulting in "feedback city" in many of the unpredictable venues that giggers play.

Signal Chain Tools that Help me get whatever Sound & the Control I need:

- Small-bodied Guitars. After playing Dreadnaughts & Jumbo's in front of mic's ineffectively for years, I made three 00-000 sized guitars for my gigs that I've used since the late 70's. This allows me to use less control in EQ & especially in cutting boominess & bass freq's that are the feedback culprits. A small body guitar is much easier to record & to amplify live. Pickups & mic's (and recording engineers) of any kind prefer a smaller bodied guitar for gigging. That's a fact!

- A Quality Signal chain that is planned in advance, where all the parts are of equal quality, & each of which complements the others - as well as the knowledge to fine-tune such a rig on the fly. The result is more headroom, a giggers best friend besides talent & inventiveness.

- Using a Mini-PA with two Mains in most cases. Better penetration, coverage & ability to tune your rig to a given room. One amp alone can't do that. Of course, you can just bring one speaker to your smaller gigs.

- Dual-Source Pickup Systems. These give you MUCH more flexibility & control over your sound, period - especially if your rig allows for separate EQ'ing & blending of the two sources. A single source pickup is OK for your home, but is not flexible enough to amplify WELL in different venues. Ya really need that second source for room control too.

- One of those Sources must be a Mic . For 39 years, I've used internal, hypercardioid condensers combined w/ SBT's. Before that, all we had was a guitar mic. For the Most Natural Acoustic Sound result ya simply can't beat a mic. It took many years, but with the right control mechanisms I can use a mic w/ other sources in about 95% of the gigging situations I run into - even loud, crowded stages. AND a mic can be run dry to excellent effect.

- Great EQ with individual & separate EQ controls for every source. Some of the newer systems available like the Lyric & Anthem do not allow for separate full control. It's already done @ the factory. But I prefer FULL control over FLAT, unhyped or unscooped sources which gives me much better EQ control on the fly at a gig. For that reason, I still prefer separate component P/U & mic sources that I can fully & separately EQ. But remember, there is a huge qualitative difference among the EQ's on the market, especially on the small mixers. Choose better EQ if you're a pro gigger, like Soundcraft, A&H or stand-alone's like Rane.

- Using High-Quality Stereo FX lightly to help control a bad room. Choose your spots for using FX - or not - on the right music. There are some Hedges pieces that need chorus. Some blues need slow tremolo, etc. Some ballads hate FX & are best played dry through a mic. Some of that old-time rock n' roll begs for a slap back delay. Depends on the music.

- In most cases, Do NOT Use Monitors. If you do use a monitor in a loud situation, don't place them at your feet or rout a guitar mic or hyped lower & lower mid- freq's through a monitor. I tend to place mine raised & behind me, angled up a bit forward & towards the ceiling. But I rarely use a monitor. Most speakers & amps should be placed up on stands.

- A key tool is Knowing How/Where to Place Mains, Monitors & Speakers in a variety of spaces. Practice that in the rooms & halls of your house. Experimentation is critical.

- Always BE the Soundman if you can. Negotiate for gigs where you have total control, even over the music used on breaks. Always negotiate w/ the soundman for complete EQ & tone control. You can give him the volume.

What seems like it could be so simple is not. Amplifying an acoustic guitar actually requires MORE & BETTER GEAR, rather than less or lesser gear, to maximize & control the tone in a given room. It took me many decades to stop trying to amplify on the cheap & to finally invest in a live signal chain that could really do it night to night. But it's so worth it, friends. Remember, it aint the only pickup you should ask about, it's the whole live signal chain.

alohachris

[lmacmil]

Originally Posted by Psalad

Personally... I think people make far too big of a matter over acoustic guitar sound, preamps, and EQs. Sure you can improve the sound, but guess what? People are more interested in the songs than the details of your acoustic guitar tone.

I've been saying that for years (but no one listens!)

Especially at open mics (unless the audience is entirely other players.)

[Doug Young]

I dont generally use any pedals or effects. The ultimate in easy, no baggage is just to use a mic. I'm currently teaching at a guitar camp in the santa cruz mountains, and i brought the PA thats been used for everything from faculty concerts to student open mics. simple setup: QSC K10s, zed 10FX, Neuman km184s+ sm58s for vocals. All mics are totally flat, no eq, and everyone has sounded simply fantastic.

If i have to plug in, my usual setup is K&k mini+DPA 4061 internal mic, into an SPS1 module - just the little end pin box, no rack unit.. No eq on the box, just volume and balance between the mc and k&ks. Run that into the house system, and I'm done. Its tiny and fits in my gig bag. Alternately, some times i use a Raven Labs Pmb1. I usually set the k&k channel flat, and roll a little low end off the mic with that preamp It runs on batteries, and also fits in my gig bag. I have that pickup configuration in several guitars, my ryan, a hamblin, a lowden. My Martin OM currently has K&K plus Lyric, so slightly different, but also good. I rarely need any eq in any of these, and cant recall the last time the sound wasnt perfectly fine totally flat (other that the mic low end rolloff). Then maybe a touch of something - maybe a tad more bass, or a slight mid cut, for taste, or room. If theres a sound man, he may do something, who knows, but its not something i have to worry about to get an acceptable sound. A good guitar, good pickup, clean simple preamp, good pa, and everything just works 99% of the time! The biggest problem i encounter is usually feedback, but my preference is not to play so loud that that becomes a real issue.

In any case, my experience, both playing, and seeing other players is that less is more. Those with the least stuff in their chain, just simple, good quality gear, get the best sounds. That might just be my taste in tone, tho.

[Andy Howell]

I run without pedals.

Like Doug I am happy with a mic if I can get away with it. My stage mic is a more humble C1000 and that benefits from a little pickup blend.

The mic and pickup are blended in a Headway preamp. If just using a mic I don't really need any EQ but my pickup needs the bass and lower Mids rolled down to 9 o'clock.

I leave reverb or delay to the person running the sound. If I have to do this myself I am quite frugal with reverb,

[SpruceTop]

The new Taylor ES 2 system is great sounding without running it into any pedals. Of course, you have to buy a Taylor to get it.

The Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono system with optional tone and volume control (VT) sounds great with no pedals. Just set the EQ wheel on the soundhole control by turning it all the way to Bass and then bringing it gradually up until all frequencies sound good. Amulet M-VT TM ($319) includes the basic system, plus the Soundhole-mounted Volume and Tone controls with low battery LED indicator.

http://www.tranceaudio.com/amuletm.html

Regards,

SpruceTop

Basic system shown below ($279):