An Email I just sent to taylor about the Expression System..

oriv · #1 07-26-2010, 05:11 AM

Hello,

My name is Ori Ventura, I purchased a new 2010 814ce, and I have some comments about your Expression System pickup, which you probably have heard already.

While it's a great cut-in-the-mix, feedback resistance pickup and great for strumming, as a professional jazz guitarist who plays a lot of solo acoustic guitar pieces, I can't tell you enough how the use of magnetic pickup adds electric, mid-range, unnatural acoustic tone.
AND I have the 2010 most up to date version!

I believe that if you would find a way to make it more natural, it would be absolutely amazing, but now it's really hard to use it for single notes, counterpoint, and solo acoustic guitar work in general - especially when playing individual notes on the first two strings.

I hope someone there hears my call.

Thanks
Ori Ventura

Mike_A · #2 07-26-2010, 05:37 AM

Hi Ori,

Taylor reads customer emails for sure. I'm one who've sent them emails and gotten back replies (and some free package too)...

Im just not sure though what reply or action you are expecting from them with that email you sent.

oriv · #3 07-26-2010, 06:13 AM

At first I thought not sending anything, but then I figured maybe if people just tell them what they think (and as we all know there are many who are disattisfied with the ES), maybe they will just continue improving it, and then anyone who wants can upgrade..

denny1948golf · #4 07-26-2010, 06:41 AM

Oriv, I agree with your comments on the ES. I think this is the reason I'm searching for the right acoustic amp, acoustic preamp or any other device that will get me where I want to be tonally. Per usual, the mids are the problem as with most acoustic pickups. That said, the "New" ES is so much better than the previous versions. I'm as close as I've found with the Phil Jones Cub 100. I still have a problem with the first two strings when playing single notes. Especially the pesky "B" string. Even though it's not perfect, it's still better than any UST I have tried.

I love the ES equipped Taylor I'm playing now. I wish the ES didn't have that crappy plastic end pin/battery holder. I'd experiment with a few of the more highly regarded acoustic pickup systems.

If enough people would respond to this thread and agree our comments and forward the entire thread to Taylor, that would help. The thing is I'm sure Taylor is very aware of this and is constantly working on the ultimate pickup system that they could use in there guitars and not be cost prohibited.

I've been wondering if the K4 would help this problem? Anyone using the K4?

kennyk · #5 07-26-2010, 08:48 AM

For what it's worth, I owned an '03 310-K ltd with ES.
I don't any more.
I have fitted L.R. Baggs I-Beam Active systems to my 915-M and W-65, (which I use with the Baggs Para D.I. box) Recently, I took them into a local recording studio and we recorded them with a pair of AKG 414s in Mid/Side configuration, AND the D.I. the Studio Engineer was utterly astounded with the sound of the I-beam. in fact it was so good we could have used the I-beam and the processed Side mic and blended those to get a stereo sound.

For Live work, it's essential to ensure that the sound guy knows that the pickup is a bit microphonic, and that with the Para DI it's possible to notch out the feedback, so long as he doesn't keep yanking the fader down every time the feedback starts before you've had a chance to dial it out; though I'd use a feedback buster for live work.
I haven't heard a pickup yet that equals or beats the I-Beam.

Marley · #6 07-26-2010, 09:27 AM

I have not researched this so I may be wrong, but it looks like the Doyle Dykes Sig Model still uses the old Fishman. If it's not the Fishman it's some other pickup system and not the ES.

Is that correct?

If so, what do you make of that?

According to Bob Taylor, the ES is the best most natural sounding acoustic pickup system ever.

Wilburman · #7 07-26-2010, 09:57 AM

I agree with Ori 100%. Although I generally use the "original" ES on a regular basis, I learned long ago that the best sound for me comes when I cut all the mids due to the unbalanced volume boost I get from the neck pickup on the b string and the "magnetic" tone that comes with it. I also get the same unbalanced boost from my T5 when the neck pickup is activated. Since my amp has high/mid/low eq, I usually cut the mids back all the way and even boost the highs and lows to 3/4 full in order to provide that much more separation between the highs/lows and the troublesome mids. This is before doing any tone adjustments at the guitar itself.

Without a way to dial out mids, the ES just doesn't seem to sound natural to me.

kennyk · #8 07-26-2010, 10:39 AM

The DDSM certainly used a Baggs system in the past- the one with the six individual saddle pickups; the HEX system I think it was called.

arielbelkin · #9 07-26-2010, 11:15 AM

I agree. I always go for the older Taylors that had the Fishman Electronics. I care more about how my guitar will sound live than about the box on the side of my guitar.

InsideOut · #10 07-26-2010, 07:20 PM

If you don't like the ES, then why did you buy it? Just get a guitar without it and amplify it however you think is best.

hflsmg17317 · #11 07-26-2010, 07:32 PM

If you don't like the ES, save yourself some money and get a soundhole pickup afterward. Or even fishmans.

Gigem314 · #12 07-26-2010, 07:32 PM

I completely agree on the ES. Some people may like it, and that's great. But I'm not buying the talk that it produces the most "natural" sound. It doesn't. It offers a different variation of sound, just like the sound of an undersaddle pick-up offers a different variation of sound.

The new ES does sound better than the previous one, but to me it really wasn't a significant difference. There's still a lot of mid-range. To me, it sounds like you're strumming the guitar up on the neck. There's no crispness to the sound. I tried it on a 614ce, and it sounded NOTHING like the crisp maple sound the 614 produces. And the entire purpose of me wanting a 614 is so I can get that crisp rich tone. The ES kills it. A lot people say you have to EQ the ES just right to get the right kind of sound. That's fine, and I'm sure that's possible, but the ES is supposed to be "plug and play" friendly. I shouldn't have to rely on a sound guy to spend extra time tweaking things to get the sound I want.

All that to be said, I recently purchased a 614 through a dealer here in Houston, and they had no problem ordering me a cutaway without electronics. I'm going to have them install a Fishman Matrix Infinity, which I've been told sounds amazing with a Taylor. Plus, my 314ce has the old Fishman, and I'm very happy with the Fishman sound. No pick-up is going to perfectly replicate the sound, but I can get a sound I want with lesser "tweaking" with a Fishman than I could with the ES.

I love Taylor guitars, and if/when I decide to get another one I have no problem special ordering one through a dealer without electronics if the ES is still around. They still have fabulous customer service, and the true acoustic sound is what you pay for. I just find it puzzling that Taylor, known for such "rich" sounding acoustics, puts out a product like the ES which leaves much to be desired.

Marley · #13 07-26-2010, 07:40 PM

this makes me wonder what that new pickup on the mini GS sounds like. It's a cool concept.

leeasam · #14 07-26-2010, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyk

The DDSM certainly used a Baggs system in the past- the one with the six individual saddle pickups; the HEX system I think it was called.

this is correct and very bright and even a bit brittle sounding. Even Doyle knows it does not sound like the acoutsic or natural but it has the tone he wants.

M1tty · #15 07-26-2010, 07:58 PM

My K4 is arriving this week. I'll post how great it is compared to the Para DI soon.