Led Zeppelin lose Stairway lawsuit round 1

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by Billy Shears

I had the Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus on the turntable just a few nights ago. Great band.

I'll second the notion that Spirit was a great band. I like LZ but always liked Spirit better. Clearly they were more original

[duff beer]

Stairway isn't the first time Led Zeppelin has been accused of using other people's songs or riffs without giving proper credit:

•"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "words and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."
•"Black Mountain Side" - uncredited version of a traditional folk tune previously recorded by Bert Jansch.
•"Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).
•"Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."
•"Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."
•"Dazed And Confused" - uncredited cover of the Jake Holmes song (see The Above Ground Sound Of Jake Holmes).
•"Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."
•"How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."
•"In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).
•"The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.
•"Moby Dick" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.
•"Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.
•"Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.
•"Stairway To Heaven" - the main guitar line is apparently from "Taurus" by Spirit.
•"White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."
•"Whole Lotta Love" - lyrics are from the Willie Dixon blues "You Need Love."

http://www.warr.org/zep.html

[zabdart]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

It'll be interesting to see where this goes, especially given that they've been accused of stealing riffs before.

Jimmy Page stole so many riffs from Hubert Sumlin it ISN'T funny.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by duff beer

Stairway isn't the first time Led Zeppelin has been accused of using other people's songs or riffs without giving proper credit:

•"Black Mountain Side" - uncredited version of a traditional folk tune previously recorded by Bert Jansch.


http://www.warr.org/zep.html

Bert's song is Black Water Side so Jimmy didn't even bother to come up with a totally different title.
Bert was attending a British award night some time before he passed away, Jimmy Page was also attending. Bert later said, "He still can't look me in the eye."

[Rondoraymundo]

Originally Posted by duff beer

Stairway isn't the first time Led Zeppelin has been accused of using other people's songs or riffs without giving proper credit:

•"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "words and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."
•"Black Mountain Side" - uncredited version of a traditional folk tune previously recorded by Bert Jansch.
•"Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).
•"Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."
•"Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."
•"Dazed And Confused" - uncredited cover of the Jake Holmes song (see The Above Ground Sound Of Jake Holmes).
•"Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."
•"How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."
•"In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).
•"The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.
•"Moby Dick" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.
•"Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.
•"Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.
•"Stairway To Heaven" - the main guitar line is apparently from "Taurus" by Spirit.
•"White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."
•"Whole Lotta Love" - lyrics are from the Willie Dixon blues "You Need Love."

http://www.warr.org/zep.html

Regurgitation breakdown, it's always the same

[ewalling]

Some of these people should be grateful that Zep turned their mediocre and forgettable riff into something truly magical!

[Rondoraymundo]

Originally Posted by ewalling

Some of these people should be grateful that Zep turned their mediocre and forgettable riff into something truly magical!

I used to love that track, then after years passed by and I gained some musical perspective, it became an earworm. The blues "tradition" of using other people's musical ideas was born when there wasn't so much money on the line with copyrights and royalities.

But if the "powerful play goes and and you may contribute a verse" - I think I'd want that verse to be my own.

[815C]

Both Spirit and Zeppelin ripped off Chim-Chimminee from Mary Poppins Pretty much the same chord progression.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by HHP

Some of this stuff gets a little silly. I might be surprised if Led Zeppelin was even aware of the records of Spirit at the time. There's also something that happens to everyone, you hear something, forget about it, and then it pops up in your playing later. Lawsuits to establish ownership of 40 year old guitar riffs strikes me as frivolous or goldigging.

Absolutely. It's the legal trade that benefits. I believe that in the USA there are "legal" firms who specialise in this sort of nonsense.

[jpd]

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by 815C

Both Spirit and Zeppelin ripped off Chim-Chimminee from Mary Poppins Pretty much the same chord progression.

Absolutely. And the way Plant ripped off Dick Van-Dyke's nifty footwork when he was cavorting to Page's solos was truly shameful!

[Wengr]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Absolutely. It's the legal trade that benefits. I believe that in the USA there are "legal" firms who specialise in this sort of nonsense.

Yep, but it would not be so easy and common, if it was not so easy here to find 12 people who get all warm and fuzzy about taking from the haves, and transferring it to the have less.

[seannx]

Originally Posted by Wengr

Yep, but it would not be so easy and common, if it was not so easy here to find 12 people who get all warm and fuzzy about taking from the haves, and transferring it to the have less.

How sad that a jury of your "peers" could be so deluded and misguided. Too bad a request couldn't be made to have 12 citizens selected who believe that the haves should gain even more from the have less. What an unfair society we must live in, when viewed from your perspective.

Given the huge amount of money LZ has made from their signature song, would it have hurt them so much to kick down even a minimal percentage? Think of how many musicians have died in poverty, reduced circumstances, or suffered, while others have made much more money from their creations. Song rights sold for a pittance, simply to get some cash to live on, by artists not experienced or savvy enough to know better. Does a basic concept of fairness no longer play a role in the either or, conservative or liberal, those who have more or have less, style of thinking that underlies your post? I'm curious about what you think is fair and just, in the big picture.

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by HHP

Some of this stuff gets a little silly. I might be surprised if Led Zeppelin was even aware of the records of Spirit at the time. There's also something that happens to everyone, you hear something, forget about it, and then it pops up in your playing later. Lawsuits to establish ownership of 40 year old guitar riffs strikes me as frivolous or goldigging.

And, as mentioned 'interesting' , given Zep's history of borrowing music and putting their name on it . 'Ridiculous' is a better word for it, to me.
It's like Carrot Top complaining about Bruce Jenner's cosmetic surgery; like , "do you even HEAR yourself "?

[Wengr]

Originally Posted by seannx

Given the huge amount of money LZ has made from their signature song, would it have hurt them so much to kick down even a minimal percentage?

Does not matter. Civil justice should be blind and not biased against one party because of relative wealth.

Originally Posted by seannx

Think of how many musicians have died in poverty, reduced circumstances, or suffered, while others have made much more money from their creations. Song rights sold for a pittance, simply to get some cash to live on, by artists not experienced or savvy enough to know better.

Don't see the relevance to this case. This is an intellectual property matter. When you list those unrelated situations, it shows imo that you are prepared to decide the matter at least to some degree from an emotional standpoint. That is illustrative of the problem that I refferenced in my original post.

Originally Posted by seannx

Does a basic concept of fairness no longer play a role in the either or, conservative or liberal, those who have more or have less, style of thinking that underlies your post?

Personally I try and stay out of that overly simplistic binary trap. The problem with a "concept of fairness" is that not all can agree. In the event that we do not agree, then possibly the idea of an arbitrary statement of fairness is flawed.

Originally Posted by seannx

I'm curious about what you think is fair and just, in the big picture.

To me the big picture in the context of my original post is that I would require 12 of my peers to do the job required of them, which would be to ascertain the facts of the case and consider them in light of the applicable intellectual property laws, and to come to a dispassionate determination. Doesn't matter who has what - only matters who did what that was inappropriate under the law.
Now, what I think about IP law is a whole nother can of worms, and again we may or may not agree, and that imo is just reality that is addressed by the democratic legislative process.
So imo, that is the proper place to determine which of our divergent opinions will rule - not the jury box.