If you like Bert Jansch... (tab content) - Page 2

sirwhale · #16 08-10-2017, 01:51 PM

I don't use a thumb pick. I prefer my basses with just my thumb flesh, no nail. Mellow. Of course, the bass is less salient this way.

JonPR · #17 08-11-2017, 04:15 AM

Bert's tonal preferences were interesting. On the one hand, he liked playing loud, using biting accents, slapping strings back against the frets. On the other, he liked the dull sound of old strings, and frequently chose mellow positions high on the neck.
He actually exploited the full range of dynamics on the steel-string acoustic. Neil Young's description of him as the "Hendrix" of the acoustic guitar was apt - just as Jimi expanded the horizons of what was possible on the electric guitar, Bert emancipated the steel-string acoustic in the same way. Classical nylon-string players have always employed the full range of what the spanish guitar can do, but nobody before Bert had really done the same for steel-string. Plenty after him have, of course.

3waytie4last · #18 08-11-2017, 06:35 AM

Enjoying your wealth of knowledge on the subject, Jon. Keep 'em coming!

JonPR · #19 08-11-2017, 10:13 AM

Trivial factoid:
I read an interview with him (it's online somewhere) where he said his favourite strings were Martin custom light 11-52. Coincidentally the exact same choice I'd made for myself many years previously.
The phrase "great minds think alike" entered my smug brain...

JonPR · #20 08-11-2017, 10:16 AM

My favourite quote of his:

"Other people count 1-2-3-4. I count 1-1-1-1...."

Explains a lot.

sirwhale · #21 08-11-2017, 12:05 PM

I'm likely to cover many of these songs with my wife singing. I'll sing them myself, but my wife will the do the "official" versions as she is a great singer. We already have Blackwaterside on my youtube channel, but we'd like to re-do it soon with my Spanish Guitar, which we like better.

When I get the tab book, I'll learn the Reynardine solo, and record that, as my wife already sings that one too.

Being Northern English, my wife thinks that Bert's songs suit me much more than any blues song I sing.

Needle of Death will probably come after that.

3waytie4last · #22 08-11-2017, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR

My favourite quote of his:

"Other people count 1-2-3-4. I count 1-1-1-1...."

Explains a lot.

I can't place it off the top of my head, but there is a Frank Zappa song where he counts off "one one one one" as the start. Perhaps a similar genius.

JonPR · #23 08-13-2017, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3waytie4last

I can't place it off the top of my head, but there is a Frank Zappa song where he counts off "one one one one" as the start. Perhaps a similar genius.

Yes - and perhaps both said it somewhat tongue-in-cheek. (Although their "genius" was very different in other ways.)

It makes sense if the metre is constantly changing throughout - 4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 2/4, etc - but the beat is consistent. The "1-1-1-1" count is then equivalent to tapping your foot to set a tempo. (In Zappa's case, the musicians would probably be reading, so would know the time sig(s).)

In fact, Bert's changes in metre in any song were always worked out - that is, if one verse went 4/4-3/4-2/4-5/4, then every verse went the exact same way. It wasn't random by any means. It was simply an organic way of letting the chord changes and rhythms fit the vocal phrasing.
(When he varied metres in instrumentals, it would be more regular, such as alternating bars of 6/8 and 9/8, or having one section in 3 and the next in 4.)
One of the problems I had when notating his tunes is where to place the barlines. Eg, if one vocal line had 9 beats, how best to organise that? Often the accent patterns help, but sometimes they don't. 4+3+2? 5+4? Maybe the occasional 3/4 bar has a 6/8 rhythm (very common)? In the latter cases, however - bearing his "1-1-1-1" in mind - I've kept to 3/4 with a syncopation, because that was doubtless how he felt it.

Naturally with this kind of exercise, there's always a tension between transcription as historical record (eg for analysing his music and understanding what it was all about), and as sheet music for performance. Theoretical versus practical, if you like. Bert wasn't writing classical pieces! (With the arguable exception of his "folk-baroque" instrumentals.) So some details of his recorded performances would be things that changed every time he played the tune, while others would be consistent. Obviously the latter is important for anyone covering his tunes, but how seriously should one take the former? We're erred on the side of absolute fidelity to recordings (as far as possible or sensible), partly to satisfy the more anal among us (

), partly to avoid having to guess the extent of variability. (All this is explained in the book, btw.)

FrankHudson · #24 08-13-2017, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR

Yes - and perhaps both said it somewhat tongue-in-cheek. (Although their "genius" was very different in other ways.)

It makes sense if the metre is constantly changing throughout - 4/4, 3/4, 5/4, 2/4, etc - but the beat is consistent. The "1-1-1-1" count is then equivalent to tapping your foot to set a tempo. (In Zappa's case, the musicians would probably be reading, so would know the time sig(s).)

In fact, Bert's changes in metre in any song were always worked out - that is, if one verse went 4/4-3/4-2/4-5/4, then every verse went the exact same way. It wasn't random by any means. It was simply an organic way of letting the chord changes and rhythms fit the vocal phrasing.
(When he varied metres in instrumentals, it would be more regular, such as alternating bars of 6/8 and 9/8, or having one section in 3 and the next in 4.)
One of the problems I had when notating his tunes is where to place the barlines. Eg, if one vocal line had 9 beats, how best to organise that? Often the accent patterns help, but sometimes they don't. 4+3+2? 5+4? Maybe the occasional 3/4 bar has a 6/8 rhythm (very common)? In the latter cases, however - bearing his "1-1-1-1" in mind - I've kept to 3/4 with a syncopation, because that was doubtless how he felt it.

Naturally with this kind of exercise, there's always a tension between transcription as historical record (eg for analysing his music and understanding what it was all about), and as sheet music for performance. Theoretical versus practical, if you like. Bert wasn't writing classical pieces! (With the arguable exception of his "folk-baroque" instrumentals.) So some details of his recorded performances would be things that changed every time he played the tune, while others would be consistent. Obviously the latter is important for anyone covering his tunes, but how seriously should one take the former? We're erred on the side of absolute fidelity to recordings (as far as possible or sensible), partly to satisfy the more anal among us (

), partly to avoid having to guess the extent of variability. (All this is explained in the book, btw.)

Yes, I can appreciate the transcription challenge! One of things I always appreciated in Bert's playing was his ability to play those odd meters convincingly.

3waytie4last · #25 08-13-2017, 10:59 AM

Excellent points, Jon.

Found the piece I was thinking of...

Zappa's bands were extremely tightly drilled and were most definitely not reading on stage. They had to know scores of his tunes inside and out so he could change rhythms at the drop of a hat (or eyebrow, as was frequently the case with Zappa). He could switch to a reggae or bolero tempo in the middle of a tune by using a set of intricate bodily movements as his conductor apparatus.

Not to digress too much from the primary topic, but I think the signatures in the attached video help to underscore the point.

Can't wait for the book.

JonPR · #26 08-14-2017, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3waytie4last

Excellent points, Jon.

Found the piece I was thinking of...

Zappa's bands were extremely tightly drilled and were most definitely not reading on stage.

Thanks - it did occur to me that they wouldn't be reading on stage.
It's the same point, though: he only had to count in a way that established the tempo, not the metre. He could have said "3-9-5-2" or "blah blah blah blah" - same effect!
In fact, that one seems to be in 4/4 (at least at the beginning) so maybe "1-1-1-1" meant "make every beat equivalent" (no distinction between down or upbeats)

sirwhale · #27 08-21-2017, 10:48 AM

Book dispatched

I'm ready and waiting.

jaymarsch · #28 08-21-2017, 01:12 PM

I look forward to checking this out. I also have the Rolly Brown DVD so this will be a great addition.

Best,
Jayne

sirwhale · #29 08-30-2017, 07:24 AM

Jon, I got the book this morning. It is absolutely fantastic and better than expected. I'm re-working Blackwaterside right now (my favourite), much work to be done.

Many thanks.

JonPR · #30 08-30-2017, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirwhale

Jon, I got the book this morning. It is absolutely fantastic and better than expected. I'm re-working Blackwaterside right now (my favourite), much work to be done.

Many thanks.

Thanks! Pass your comments on to the Foundation - they'd love to hear it (although I suspect it might find its way to them anyway). https://www.facebook.com/bertjanschfoundation/

I'd also love to hear any more comments you have on any aspect of the book - for or against. (More of this, less of that? etc)
I'm hopeful a second volume might eventually emerge - although even if this one goes really well, enough to persuade the publishers, that won't be for some time, judging by how long it took this one to gestate....