Redwood suggestions

[harvl]

Not a lot needs to be added to what has already been said.

I build about 70% of my guitars with redwood... obviously a favorite! Like Tim mentions redwood spans a spectrum almost as wide as spruce and cedar combined. As I like to mention; think of a redwood tree that is 2,000 years old... the wood at the bottom has sat under tons of weight, experienced countless earthquakes and forest fire since the Crusades.., meanwhile, at the top of the tree is wood that is "only" 500 years old (still older than much of the spruce) and has been blowing in the almost constant wind and has spent it's entire existence in a totally different ecosystem... As a result there is redwood and there is redwood... and then there is LS redwood. I have made a habit of collecting all of the different "storied" redwoods including some salvaged from wine vats... I even have some giant Sequoia which is a whole different conversation. I even have a tree planted in my front yard... you know... sustainability... in 1000 years it will replace everything I use Of all the redwoods I've used I think the LS is the ideal choice for flat picking.

My favorite combo is with Claro walnut, I like the way the colors match as well as the acoustical combo. I also like the idea that the two woods grow in the same general area. I also really like the way it tends to mellow out woods that can be a bit too brite for me (I love what it does with maple... but the color match is terrible! so sunburst) It can be magical with Koa too for the same reason. Oddly... I've never tried it with mahogany, unless you count "the Tree" which is an amazing combo.

Here is an LS/ Tree mahogany (my 2-Trees limited edition)



Here is a great shot of the silking that often comes with the LS


Harv

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by harvl

Here is an LS/ Tree mahogany (my 2-Trees limited edition)

That just shouldn't be allowed!

Gorgeous guitar with two great "story" woods (one of which . . . the LS redwood . . . definitely has great tone to it based on my own experience. Unfortunately, no experience here with "The Tree").

Did I say that's a gorgeous guitar?

[printer2]

You guys stop with the Redwood, now I want one.

[alohachris]

Aloha Friends,

Everything said & shared above - I agree with. Redwood makes a fantastic tonewood for both steel-string & classical guitars when matched with the right back & side woods - AND PLAYER. I have made several redwood topped steel-string guitars paired w/ Hawaiian acacia Koa & also w/ Macassar ebony, Walnut & EI Rosewood.

Two things I must share with the OP about Redwood tops (my opinions):

1) Redwood is weak. The OP at this point is primarily a flatpicker, right? The majority of Redwood used for guitar tops is the absolute worst wood to use if you are a flatpicker because it is the softest of the topwoods in use & it is absolutely "defenseless" against errant flatpick strumming. It always abrades or dents, no exceptions. Redwood can easily become trashed very quickly for that reason. I've seen holes through some redwood tops that weren't even that old. Twenty year old gigging guitars w/ redwood tops are almost an anomaly.

Have you ever seen an old redwood-topped acoustic dreadnaught (like those of Mark Whitebook or David Russell Young?). I've seen & repaired several & flatpicking has just trashed the redwood tops. Or how bout those gouges around the pickguard on redwood steel-string guitars from strong double thumbers & pickers. Redwood also does not travel as well or handle the seasons as well as spruces under tension.

2) IMO (guys, please hear me out), Spruces age much better (dramatically so in some cases) than Redwood tops tonally. I've been able to compare the tones of many, many similar guitars both when they were new & also @ 30+ years old. I always like older spruce guitars for tone. So I'll say it, tone improves more over time with a spruce top.

Luthiers used to have these discussions all the time about which species' topwoods maximize & play-in the fastest. Redwood usually wins & is one reason why over the last 40 years it has become a wood of choice for classical guitar tops. (Note: also remember that a redwood-topped classical guitar top is typically under about 75/lbs. per sq. inch of pressure. But, a steel-string guitar is typically under around 225 lb's per sq. inch of pressure. SO, to which application is the weaker redwood more suited, classical or steel-string? And most players don't strum redwood classicals w/ Fender flatpicks typically.

However, the stronger spruce top seems to have no limit as to how much it can optimize over time through regular playing. I have over 50 years in as an almost nightly gigger, using the German Spruce & Hawaiian Acacia Koa-topped small-bodied guitars that I built in the 70's. I believe that over time, a spruce top (my favorites have always been real German Spruce of which I have a lifetime supply found/cut in SE Germany in the late-30's) will provide the optimum sound - especially when the guitar is fully mature. That's been true on my guitars & on the many I've known & repaired over time. All the other factors being equal - including the player, spruce just ages better than redwood or cedar.

Of course redwood is absolutely gorgeous & is easy to fall in love with as a topwood. It can sound great. I've used it on 20 classicals & hybrids I've built. But over the course of time.... I always prefer German Spruce as a tonewood, tonally & structurally. - especially for steel-stringed guitars that will be flatpicked or travel a lot. GS just gets better & better & better & it handles more abuse than redwood.

Again, much depends on the timbers it's matched with, style of music, player etc. etc.

However, I just felt the OP should read this opinion, to be made aware, but not to temper his enthusiasm for owning a beautiful custom redwood top guitar made by a great luthier (yes, Claro walnut is a great match with redwood, visually & tonally). Gorgeous pictures, guys!

All the best,

alohachris

[SJ VanSandt]

Thanks, Alohachris, for putting that in perspective. I've suspected all along that a good German spruce top would be hard to beat - I have two guitars with it and one of them is fine for fingerstyle (my D-18 style dread is fine too, really, though it's a bit scooped in the middle and the neck's a bit narrow).

But . . . I'm curious about redwood and thought I would ask. I didn't think it would wear or scar as badly as cedar - that's good to know. I'm not concerned about the issue of it not aging well, personally: I'm not aging too well myself. If I use up a guitar in my lifetime - that would be great. In fact, I might put that on my bucket list.

[martind42]

Originally Posted by SJ VanSandt

Thanks, Alohachris, for putting that in perspective. I've suspected all along that a good German spruce top would be hard to beat - I have two guitars with it and one of them is fine for fingerstyle (my D-18 style dread is fine too, really, though it's a bit scooped in the middle and the neck's a bit narrow).

But . . . I'm curious about redwood and thought I would ask. I didn't think it would wear or scar as badly as cedar - that's good to know. I'm not concerned about the issue of it not aging well, personally: I'm not aging too well myself. If I use up a guitar in my lifetime - that would be great. In fact, I might put that on my bucket list.

For what it's worth, I have found the T13 redwood to be much more like spruce than cedar as far as density goes. Not even close. So there is definitely some variety in the wood being used by luthiers. YMMV. Not pushing the T13, just saying it's very hard, unlike cedar.

[islandguitar]

Originally Posted by martind42

For what it's worth, I have found the T13 redwood to be much more like spruce than cedar as far as density goes. Not even close. So there is definitely some variety in the wood being used by luthiers. YMMV. Not pushing the T13, just saying it's very hard, unlike cedar.

Yes, I believe many of these same qualities can be said for LS Redwood. This was Tom Doerr's strong reaction in working once again with LS Redwood on my guitar. Many qualities of spruce... Density and stiffness along the grain seemed to place it in a class by itself.

[SJ VanSandt]

(no redwood content here - I'm hijacking my own thread)

Just to make things clear about my guitar situation: I have an Allison dreadnought, German spruce and mahogany, that I am completely happy with for flatpicking bluegrass, strumming old country tunes, accompanying my singing, which is 90% of what I do. It's not going anywhere. If Tony Rice or Bryan Sutton played it, I think they would like it (I'm not saying it's better than what they play, I just think they would approve of it).

I have another Allison, a slope-shouldered short-scale 12-fret, custom built for me, that is also a fine guitar, maybe better in some ways, but it doesn't quite fit me as well as I had hoped it would. I was wrong about not needing a cutaway with a 12 fret - there's the gist of it. So I plan to sell or trade it for something that is more different from my beloved dread. A small, fingerstyle, possibly redwood topped guitar? Maybe. A harp guitar? Now that would be different!

My guitar #3, a Recording King dread, is my pickin'-in-the-park-in-iffy-weather guitar, and it's probably not going anywhere either. Any upgrade would defeat the purpose, and it's a fine little guitar in it's own right.

I just can't see having three very similar guitars: two is a luxury but three seems a waste. So Im exploring options.

[iim7V7IM7]

Here is a comparison of the average density, hardness and stiffness of some of the woods being discussed. Caveat = average and does not reflect variability (note Tim's earlier comment on redwood).

Density:
1) Redwood @ 415 kg/m3
2) Norway Spruce @ 405 kg/m3
3) Western Red Cedar @ 370 kg/m3

Hardness:
1) Redwood @ 2000 N
2) Norway Spruce @ 1680 N
3) Western Red Cedar @ 1560 N

Stiffness:
1) Norway Spruce @ 9.70 GPa
2) Redwood @ 8.41 GPa
3) Western Red Cedar @ 7.66 GPa

Frankly the alternative topwood that interests me with an incredible density/stiffness ratio is also from the Pacific NW. It is Port Orford Cedar which actually a cypress:

Density @ 465 kg/m3
Hardness @ 2620 N
Stiffness @ 11.35 GPa

[harvl]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Friends,

Everything said & shared above - I agree with. Redwood makes a fantastic tonewood for both steel-string & classical guitars when matched with the right back & side woods - AND PLAYER. I have made several redwood topped steel-string guitars paired w/ Hawaiian acacia Koa & also w/ Macassar ebony, Walnut & EI Rosewood.

Two things I must share with the OP about Redwood tops (my opinions):

1) Redwood is weak. The OP at this point is primarily a flatpicker, right? The majority of Redwood used for guitar tops is the absolute worst wood to use if you are a flatpicker because it is the softest of the topwoods in use & it is absolutely "defenseless" against errant flatpick strumming. It always abrades or dents, no exceptions. Redwood can easily become trashed very quickly for that reason. I've seen holes through some redwood tops that weren't even that old. Twenty year old gigging guitars w/ redwood tops are almost an anomaly.

Have you ever seen an old redwood-topped acoustic dreadnaught (like those of Mark Whitebook or David Russell Young?). I've seen & repaired several & flatpicking has just trashed the redwood tops. Or how bout those gouges around the pickguard on redwood steel-string guitars from strong double thumbers & pickers. Redwood also does not travel as well or handle the seasons as well as spruces under tension.

2) IMO (guys, please hear me out), Spruces age much better (dramatically so in some cases) than Redwood tops tonally. I've been able to compare the tones of many, many similar guitars both when they were new & also @ 30+ years old. I always like older spruce guitars for tone. So I'll say it, tone improves more over time with a spruce top.

Luthiers used to have these discussions all the time about which species' topwoods maximize & play-in the fastest. Redwood usually wins & is one reason why over the last 40 years it has become a wood of choice for classical guitar tops. (Note: also remember that a redwood-topped classical guitar top is typically under about 75/lbs. per sq. inch of pressure. But, a steel-string guitar is typically under around 225 lb's per sq. inch of pressure. SO, to which application is the weaker redwood more suited, classical or steel-string? And most players don't strum redwood classicals w/ Fender flatpicks typically.

However, the stronger spruce top seems to have no limit as to how much it can optimize over time through regular playing. I have over 50 years in as an almost nightly gigger, using the German Spruce & Hawaiian Acacia Koa-topped small-bodied guitars that I built in the 70's. I believe that over time, a spruce top (my favorites have always been real German Spruce of which I have a lifetime supply found/cut in SE Germany in the late-30's) will provide the optimum sound - especially when the guitar is fully mature. That's been true on my guitars & on the many I've known & repaired over time. All the other factors being equal - including the player, spruce just ages better than redwood or cedar.

Of course redwood is absolutely gorgeous & is easy to fall in love with as a topwood. It can sound great. I've used it on 15 classicals & hybrids I've built. But over the course of time.... I always prefer German Spruce as a tonewood, tonally & structurally. GS just gets better & better & better.

Again, much depends on the timbers it's matched with, style of music, player etc. etc.

However, I just felt the OP should read this opinion, to be made aware, but not to temper his enthusiasm for owning a beautiful custom redwood top guitar made by a great luthier (yes, Claro walnut is a great match with redwood, visually & tonally). Gorgeous pictures, guys!

All the best,

alohachris

I would agree that most redwood is softer than most spruce, however... again, there is redwood and then there is redwood. I've never done a scientific test for hardness but I would bet that the LS is just as hard if not harder than most spruce... and it's nowhere near the hardest redwood that I have. I've built redwood topped dreads for a few BG players (Terry Eldridge and Herb Pedersen among others) and they are still in great shape after 20 years.

I definitely agree that spruce tends to get better with age but redwood tends to sounds better to start with... "better" being subjective of course...

And to be clear... I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just adding that in my experience (about 200 redwood guitars) it spans the distance from cedar to spruce in just about every category... including durability.

[jperryrocks]

Many guitars are never gigged with. If I had to guess, I'd say that 80% of all higher end "boutique era" guitars from the last 15-20 years never leave people's homes.

So you have your "outside" guitars to beat around, and you take better care of the nicer custom guitars.

I doubt many people will ever have to worry about wearing a hole in a redwood top.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by SJ VanSandt

I didn't think it would wear or scar as badly as cedar - that's good to know.

I have read that statement coming from many reasonable members on the forum -- but I would respectfully disagree IF the guitar is finished with one of the more modern finishes (like Taylors and Olsons).

I've never thrashed my Olsons but my Taylor gets plenty of beating -- sans pickguard. The finish is so strong that it doesn't really matter what wood is underneath it. Unless one tries to deliberately scrape the top, I don't see this being a significant consideration unless one insists on a more traditional finish.

As for the ageing part and other references to tonal improvements, it's all relative and personal.

The main factors are the actual guitar build, the player's technique and the player's perception. Assuming that one is dealing with a luthier who knows what he/she is doing, everything else becomes secondary -- including tone wood selection, type of glue and type of truss rod.

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Here is a comparison of the average density, hardness and stiffness of some of the woods being discussed. Caveat = average and does not reflect variability (note Tim's earlier comment on redwood).

Density:
1) Redwood @ 415 kg/m3
2) Norway Spruce @ 405 kg/m3
3) Western Red Cedar @ 370 kg/m3

Hardness:
1) Redwood @ 2000 N
2) Norway Spruce @ 1680 N
3) Western Red Cedar @ 1560 N

Stiffness:
1) Norway Spruce @ 9.70 GPa
2) Redwood @ 8.41 GPa
3) Western Red Cedar @ 7.66 GPa

The final empirical scientific analysis has to do with overall sound quality:

Tonal perfection:
1) Western Red Cedar @ 99.7%
2) Redwood 95.3%
3) Norway Spruce 89.1%

No more need be said......

[SJ VanSandt]

What could poor Norway spruce do for extra credit, Ukejon? So close to an A!

[W. D.]

Lots of great wisdom already shared on the merits and characteristics of redwood. I am the fortunate owner of the redwood/ziricote OM that Kent Chasson pictured in his initial post. It is a stunning instrument, both sonically and visually. Kent's descriptions and comments are spot on, in my experience, particularly regarding the tone. I'll add a few observations. (1) The guitar responds to the lightest touch, but overall is a surprisingly loud instrument; (2) The tone is aptly described as warm and dark; the trebles in the high registers sound like a bell choir (I think some call this "sweet") and are truly exceptional. (3) I've owned it nearly two years, and while it sounded great initially, it has discernibly opened up -- not to discount that spruce generally opens more quickly and reportedly has more "aging" potential over time; (4) Kent was great to deal with throughout the build process, and I believe he still has access to some very fine older redwood tops.

Happy exploring!