Perhaps some stupid ES thoughts....

[jjbigfly]

Having played a few amplified acoustic guitars, and used a few amplifiers and PA systems, and have operated some different sound boards, I can't help thinking:
How many complaints regarding the ES system are really due to other factors than the ES?
For myself, if the guitar does not sound like what I want it to, it has always seemed to be a matter of adjusting it correctly. There are so many ways to shape the sound with newer PAs, and so many system options that it might be more of an issue of being able to adjust to sound rather than the pickup in the instrument itself (and not just ES, but all pickups).
I have come to believe that having the correct amplification equipment to make the sound you are wanting is critical. An example might be replacing 10" speakers with 15" with no other changes. Things might get boomy. And the power requirements are going to be different, and the room size makes a difference and on and on.
While newer systems are getting closer to a "plug-n-play" level, there is still a great deal of user settings to deal with in order to get the "sound" you are looking for. I have used a few systems that I felt the ES was not at it's best playing through, but I have had the same issues with other pickups also.
Perhaps we should be as critical in our choice of amplification as we are with the actual instrument. And then put forth a little effort in understanding the actual sound we look for is, in order to duplicate it. My ES is not going to sound good with ALL amplifiers, guaranteed. Same with PA systems. But if there is enough adjustments on a given system, and I understand how to use them, I should be able to have it sound just fine. Regardless of the pickup......
To get the sound you want you need to have a basic understanding of how to make it, or you need to keep trying different equipment and instruments until you find it. Or be real lucky....

[Doubleneck]

I think there is a lot of truth to want you say. I also think in the same vain people say they have the best pickup and really what has happened is, like you said, they have worked with it with all the other "stuff" and have shaped it to their liking.

[DavidE]

When the ES System sounds very magnetic and unnatural in Taylor's own demos, using the add on $500 K4, I think it's the pickup system.

[jjbigfly]

The ball ALWAYS rolls downhill. You would think I would know that by now.....

[Soaranator]

I play acoustic roulette by going to open mics. I also have my own PA set up in my music room so I can get as good a sound as possible from all my acoustics. Have undersaddle, K&K, Pick Up The World and ES pickup systems. ES sounded the worst of the lot to me.
So, I replaced the Taylor 3 knob preamp with one from MiSi, a nice drop-in job. I had MiSi "tune" their preamp for a Pick Up The World 2 element tape transducer. Now my 614ce get the compliments it deserves. I left all the Taylor pickups in the guitar and kept their preamp so when I sell it, I can revert right back to the stock ES system. If I had to do it all over again I might try the K&K instead of the PUTW. Or better yet, get a Taylor without the ES system. The MiSi is great - no battery and recharges thru the endpin jack. sweet.

[DavidE]

Originally Posted by jjbigfly

The ball ALWAYS rolls downhill. You would think I would know that by now.....

If Taylor can't make it sound non-metallic and natural in their own demo videos, what does that tell me as a consumer?

I also never liked Dan Fogelberg's live acoustic tone either (I think he used a Sunrise) for what that's worth.

Yet I'm pretty quickly able to dial in a tone I'm happy with on a Baggs M1a using a simple Fishman eq/preamp, so it's not necessarily an issue with magnetic pickups in general. And yes, I owned a couple of Taylors with various versions of ES and two T5s AND a K4 and really could not do anything to make them pleasing to my ear through my Bose L1 original either straight in or through my Bose mixer, or a Fishman SA220, or Fishman Loudbox, or conventional p.a. etc...

Just experience talking here.

BUTTTTTTTTT:

I found one video on youtube where the guy actually made the ES on his 314 sound good (is that the full version ES?) before he kicked in a synth system:

http://youtu.be/E7q_QwLYI8U

I asked how he did it and here was his response:

I only use an EQ and a little reverb. The expression system provides an excellent natural sound but there's something wrong in the middle frequencies. Try these settings in a parametric EQ with all your potars full on the Taylor : +3db@185Hz, -2db@1,74Khz (Q3,32), +2db@4,57Khz. Hope it will help you !

[Taylor Guy]

Originally Posted by DavidE

BUTTTTTTTTT:

I found one video on youtube where the guy actually made the ES on his 314 sound good (is that the full version ES?) before he kicked in a synth system:

http://youtu.be/E7q_QwLYI8U

I asked how he did it and here was his response:

I only use an EQ and a little reverb. The expression system provides an excellent natural sound but there's something wrong in the middle frequencies. Try these settings in a parametric EQ with all your potars full on the Taylor : +3db@185Hz, -2db@1,74Khz (Q3,32), +2db@4,57Khz. Hope it will help you !

David- Correct me if I am wrong, but he is obviously using a secondary pickup system (or different all together?). Look at the extra toggle switch drilled into the wood between the ES knobs and the neck. I have never seen an ES with one of those...thoughts? Or is that part of the synth system?

[Petty1818]

jjbigfly, I think this is the case with most pickups.. the better the sound system, the better they will sound. It's definitely possible to make most pickups sound good or even great using cheaper PA systems or amplifiers but in my experience whenever I use high end gear, my acoustics sound better with far less work.

Having said that, this isn't really the case for the ES system IMO. I think through a quality system it can be made to sound quite good but for most users it's way more work than it should be. I bought into the ES hype when I purchased my Taylor and although the tone was okay, I hated it even more than the Fishman Matrix that I had previously used and that's saying a lot. I also bought into the K4 claim that it would make the ES sound its best. However, although the K4 is a great unit, it did little to remedy the ugly tone coming from the ES pickup system. I honestly think that the ES system is just awful. What's worse is the fact that I had to spend quite a lot of money to have it removed which is a major pain. It was a lesson learned though. In the future I am definitely buying an acoustic without electronics and adding something myself later.

[briggleman]

I love ES threads, they just crack me up............. I mean literally!!!!!!

You are right, the ball always rolls down hill!!!!!!!!!!

Let me start it the other way....j

I own and play literally 18 guitars, 4 of them acoustic, and yes a Taylor is one of them. Two of the acoustics have Fishman systems, and yes folks........ the Taylor ES is the most natural of the bunch. Fingerstyle to hard strumming, that GA of mine gets it done.

Now here is the testament.... at every single gig, I have guitar players coming up to look at my guitar, they want to play it, and I hear this every single time.... this thing sounds magnificent! I stand by my baby and let them strum and finger pick and through the PA or when we do small outdoor gigs through the amps..... its the same.

I do not hear that magnetic thing..... I laugh at that because every pickup system amplifies in some way and in the end..... a magnet is involved, be it from the pickup or the end result when it comes out of the speaker, a magnet is involved. Get over it folks......

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE ES, GREAT , GO FOR THAT OTHER GREAT SYSTEM.

ROLLING DOWN HILL NOW!!!!!!!!

[Petty1818]

briggleman, that's great that the ES system works for you and definitely don't take what people say about the ES pickup too personally. I think it's a bit of an acquired taste. It's pretty awesome that at every show you have people coming up to you though, that's definitely a great thing.

Having said that, I have played shows where I have felt like my sound was just awful only to have a few people come up and say they loved my tone (my taylor ES system being one of them). This is not to say that the people coming to you don't know tone, it's more so that maybe we as musicians are harder on pickups than we should be? It's all in finding the one that works for you and you seem to have that.

I think that these ES threads just open themselves up to negativity in the first place. Even the member who started this thread questioned whether the sound system is to blame for the poor sound of the ES system so there's obviously an issue there. Personally, I just feel as though this system has not been perfected yet and should not be in expensive Taylor guitars.. but that's just me

[Ruppster]

I am not a Taylor basher, I own three; 612ce, Baby Taylor (with Fishman) and a custom Koa T5. Stunning guitars, less than stunning plugged in. I cannot buy into the concept of spending several thousand dollars on a high end acoustic/electric then having to cough up an additional $500 to make it sound good plugged in? As a result, the T5 and 612ce hang on my wall and my daughter has adopted the Baby Taylor.

That said, my Martin omcpa1 has the Fishman Aura in it and you can get as good as sound as you want, IF you spend the time dialing it in. It's almost over engineered. My Martin OMJM with a simple Goldline pickup, no controls whatsoever, sounds surprisingly good through my Fishman Loudbox. I do use an EQ pedal to fine tune it but that's it. (less than $100)

Finally,(as I ramble on) I have an old Takamine New Yorker that was my main stage and recording guitar for 10+ years and it still sounds just great live.

Heard the Yairi WY1 also has a great stage sound, am trying to find one now.

Thanks for listening....

[j3ffr0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJtapDA8ics
3:14 is the Expression System

Sounds fantastic to me and similar to the results with every Taylor I've touched also without using an EQ. I've compared it head to head against Martin's with the Fishman Aura, and it's night and day in favor of the Taylor ES (did my comparisons through Loudbox Artist)

[briggleman]

I do not think I have ever bashed any pickup system in all of the acoustic guitars I have played. My Fishman's do not sound alike, but I like both of them plugged in. I realize some will prefer the sound over others, but the Taylor ES, as stated many times in these types of threads, is a different animal. It is a balanced system, NO DI NEEDED, and yet some will take a regular 1/4 TS cord and go through another DI and guess what happens....lots, but not what Bob and Robert N. intended. Use the ES correctly, wonderful things happen and the flexibility it offers.... I use to full advantage. I can go to a coffee house, put in my TRS to XLR cable, hand the XLR end to the sound guy......done! Straight to the board....pure tone.

There are all kinds of great systems out there, I have found mine..... go find yours and stop trying to bash the systems you do not like.... find their advantages and exploit them!

[Carbonius]

Every system I tried my Taylor through sounded the same way. SUPER hot B string... And yes, the B string. Not the B note, not something that could be eq'ed out. Once I added several pieces of metal under the B string to somewhat block the pickup it was at least balanced... and ugly. Taylor told me that some pickups were put in backwards...

I didn't mind the tone of the wound strings in lower positions, but I found the unwound to sound like a jazz guitar or a neck pickup on an electric run clean. More so as I worked my way up the neck.

I eventually took the plunge, pulled it all out and stuck in a K&K. Best move I ever made.

I tried the newest ES system out a few months back through a Fishman amp and again... it was okay in lower positions. I still found the unwound strings too magnetic sounding for my liking. ALSO, the unwound strings were STILL louder than the wound. I shook my head and walked away.

If I buy another Taylor it will be non-ES. I LOVE the guitars... HATE the pickups.

[Petty1818]

Carbonius, that's exactly the tone that I got from my ES guitar. I always had difficulty explaining it to people but you summed it up well.

In university, I played a local venue every thursday night through a very high end sound system with a sound tech. I would hook up my recording gear and patch it into the mixer and get amazing live recordings that we were hoping to use for a demo. Anyway, when I would strum my Taylor the sound was "Okay" through the recordings. However, as soon as I played the G,B,E strings, especially higher up on the neck, my tone sounded a lot like a jazz guitar.

One particular song that we recorded required a fairly lengthy acoustic guitar solo. When I showed a few friends the recording of my solo, they commented on how great the electric guitar tone was. I never told them that it was actually my acoustic but it did confirm that jazzy character that I was hearing. I know direct recordings are not the best indicators but I always found the ES system to sound very electric.