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  #16  
Old 10-17-2014, 04:56 AM
BothHands BothHands is offline
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Default Very Small Saddles to begin with...


As you can see, the existing/original saddles are TINY, and my GraphTech TUSQ replacements are basically .060" shorter than these. Not fun for my first attempt at making a saddle from a blank.

I've completed the larger saddle (more adjustments, maybe) and will attempt the smaller one tonight. If you have any advice for me, please let fly.

Thanks
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  #17  
Old 10-17-2014, 09:42 AM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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The break angle is a little low, but it appears workable to me. If you think you need more, you can cut string ramps in the bridge.
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  #18  
Old 10-17-2014, 10:24 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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The break angle on your guitar is sufficient.

A guitar with a super low or super high break angle cannot be judged on the break angle alone. Depending upon the construction of the soundboard (tight/loose), the bridge & bridgeplate area, and the bracing, a guitar with a relatively low break angle could sound and play entirely satisfying.

Flamenco guitars and classical guitars are an ideal comparison. Flamenco guitars most commonly have lower bridges and saddles (7 to 9mm total) whereas classical guitars have considerably taller bridges and saddles (9-12mm total). A flamenco guitar with the same strings can be built much more lightly since there is less torque on the bridge, so less stressing on the soundboard immediately in front and behind the bridge. The sound and response (attack, body, sustain/decay) of flamenco and classical instruments is different due to BOTH the low break angle AND the lighter tops.

With steel string guitars, the results can be different. Low break angle usually results in a "softer" sound - ie: somewhat quieter volume and a warmer bass/baritone sound.

Unless low break angle is causing a problem, it is not a problem.
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  #19  
Old 10-17-2014, 11:54 AM
BothHands BothHands is offline
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THANK YOU, John and Ned. I'm much relieved by your comments.

I knew the saddles I'm making would end up "pretty doggone low" just by working through the math in preparation of actually doing the work. Then I witnessed the resultant low break angle before going to bed last night and was concerned.

I'd like to run something else past you please. Glad as I am to read how this situation is likely benign, IF a problem manifests I'm thinking about implementing one or both of the following measures:

1. This guitar (both of them) has an unusual 'stepped' bridge design. IF the strings actually do end up resting upon the corner/edge of that step, I was thinking about using a Dremel tool with some kind of small cylindrical sanding drum attached. I imagine holding the sanding drum to match each string's break angle and removing only a "swale" from the ebony wood under each string. My intention would be to remove as little wood as possible to separate the string from that edge.

Q1. Do you see any problem with that?


2. I've done some online reading/research on slotting of bridge pin holes to achieve a steeper string break angle. IF that becomes necessary, I thought I would combine slotting with the swales in Item 1. I may have it wrong, but it seems as though slotting the bridge pin holes will bring the strings into greater contact with the edge/corner of the bridge's 'step'.

Q2. Will slotting the bridge bring the strings more into contact with the bridge 'step'?

Q3. Can you recommend a way (a tool or a method) to cut bridge slots without using a dedicated slotting saw?
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  #20  
Old 10-17-2014, 02:32 PM
arie arie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
Q3. Can you recommend a way (a tool or a method) to cut bridge slots without using a dedicated slotting saw?
although i do have dedicated saws for ramp slots, coping saw blades are something to try. i just cut one of the ends off to have a tiny, thin, saw. cheap and easy.
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  #21  
Old 10-17-2014, 02:39 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
THANK YOU, John and Ned. I'm much relieved by your comments.

I knew the saddles I'm making would end up "pretty doggone low" just by working through the math in preparation of actually doing the work. Then I witnessed the resultant low break angle before going to bed last night and was concerned.

I'd like to run something else past you please. Glad as I am to read how this situation is likely benign, IF a problem manifests I'm thinking about implementing one or both of the following measures:

1. This guitar (both of them) has an unusual 'stepped' bridge design. IF the strings actually do end up resting upon the corner/edge of that step, I was thinking about using a Dremel tool with some kind of small cylindrical sanding drum attached. I imagine holding the sanding drum to match each string's break angle and removing only a "swale" from the ebony wood under each string. My intention would be to remove as little wood as possible to separate the string from that edge.

Q1. Do you see any problem with that?


2. I've done some online reading/research on slotting of bridge pin holes to achieve a steeper string break angle. IF that becomes necessary, I thought I would combine slotting with the swales in Item 1. I may have it wrong, but it seems as though slotting the bridge pin holes will bring the strings into greater contact with the edge/corner of the bridge's 'step'.

Q2. Will slotting the bridge bring the strings more into contact with the bridge 'step'?

Q3. Can you recommend a way (a tool or a method) to cut bridge slots without using a dedicated slotting saw?
Slotting the bridge as you describe in (1) above is commonly known amongst guitar techs and luthiers as "string ramps", which is what John A. suggested and is entirely acceptable.

Slotting the pin holes will likely be unnecessary for your needs, but well slotted bridge pin holes with non slotted (and well fitted) bridge pins can make for a bridge with easy to change strings. Depends too, however, what the bridge plate is made from (ie: hardwood or softwood - softwood bridge plates often result in the string ball ends bit by bit eating into the bridge plate, causing them to stick and sometimes be a nuisance when changing strings.)

For your present situation, first focus on string ramps if you feel it necessary.
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  #22  
Old 10-17-2014, 05:58 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
Slotting the bridge as you describe in (1) above is commonly known amongst guitar techs and luthiers as "string ramps", which is what John A. suggested and is entirely acceptable. [...] For your present situation, first focus on string ramps if you feel it necessary.
I see. I misunderstood John Arnold's use of the term string ramps, thinking it pertained to the slotting of bridge pin holes. I appreciate you clarifying that.

I read online today that IF a problem were to manifest and require string ramps, the symptoms would likely be a lack of volume and possibly "sounding similar to a sitar". Uh-oh... I have no idea whether thats accurate, but If I notice either symptom I'll set down my hookah pipe and ask you all for further advice.

If you or anyone here knows of any other potential symptoms that might indicate the need for string ramps or increased string break angle, please advise.

QUESTION: I've never ever cut into any part of an acoustic guitar before. If I sand into the ebony bridge to create the string ramps, will I need to apply a finish of some kind to the newly-machined ebony surfaces? Typically I wipe down the bridge with Dunlop 65 as used to dress ebony or rosewood fretboards. Would that be sufficient?

Thanks
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  #23  
Old 10-17-2014, 06:03 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BothHands View Post
I see. I misunderstood John Arnold's use of the term string ramps, thinking it pertained to the slotting of bridge pin holes. I appreciate you clarifying that.

I read online today that IF a problem were to manifest and require string ramps, the symptoms would likely be a lack of volume and possibly "sounding similar to a sitar". Uh-oh... I have no idea whether thats accurate, but If I notice either symptom I'll set down my hookah pipe and ask you all for further advice.

If you or anyone here knows of any other potential symptoms that might indicate the need for string ramps or increased string break angle, please advise.

QUESTION: I've never ever cut into any part of an acoustic guitar before. If I sand into the ebony bridge to create the string ramps, will I need to apply a finish of some kind to the newly-machined ebony surfaces? Typically I wipe down the bridge with Dunlop 65 as used to dress ebony or rosewood fretboards. Would that be sufficient?

Thanks
Ebony doesn't need finish on it, so Lemon oil (I think Dunlop 65 is a mix of that) is fine.

If there is zero break angle, then you can get a sitar like sound, but even though you didn't get a photo of your high E and B strings, it doesn't look like you are anywhere close to worrying about sitar sounds.

Keep that hookah going!! ;-)
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  #24  
Old 10-17-2014, 06:04 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
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Originally Posted by arie View Post
although i do have dedicated saws for ramp slots, coping saw blades are something to try. i just cut one of the ends off to have a tiny, thin, saw. cheap and easy.
Thanks, arie. If I have to go this route (and I see the benefits of doing so, as pointed out by Ned), I hope I can find something more rigid and controllable than an unsupported coping saw blade. Maybe some kind of small stab saw?

No criticism intended. I'm just a sayin', a good man knows his limitations...
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  #25  
Old 10-17-2014, 06:16 PM
BothHands BothHands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
it doesn't look like you are anywhere close to worrying about sitar sounds. Keep that hookah going!! ;-)
Thanks, Ned, and yeah, I sure don't wanta let this bridge-and-saddle issue 'harsh my buzz'. HA!
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  #26  
Old 10-17-2014, 07:20 PM
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bnjp bnjp is offline
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Seems to me that string ramps won't do much good since the strings appear to be resting across the ebony where there elevation changes. If it were me, and I was worried about break angle, I would reshape the bridge behind the saddle before I cut string ramps. You could cut notches in the top of the bridge where they are touching now, but It won't look very good. The design of that bridge actually gives you an advantage as far as break angle goes since the bridge pins are on a lower plane than the saddle.
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  #27  
Old 10-17-2014, 09:48 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
Seems to me that string ramps won't do much good since the strings appear to be resting across the ebony where there elevation changes.
My idea for ramps in this case includes cutting a notch through the step. I do occasionally use a hand-held jig saw blade for this, but a Dremel with a small engraving bit is faster and easier.
Quote:
You could cut notches in the top of the bridge where they are touching now, but It won't look very good.
If you limit the width of the ramps to slightly wider than the strings (in other words, do a neat job), it will hardly be noticeable.
Note the difference between ramps and slotting the pin holes. A slotted hole is done to help the string clear an unslotted pin, and is vertical. Slotting the holes does tend to increase the break angle, but only slightly.
A string ramp is at an angle somewhere around 45 degrees to the face of the guitar. Its purpose is to increase the string break angle.
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  #28  
Old 10-18-2014, 06:02 PM
AmericanPicker AmericanPicker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
My idea for ramps in this case includes cutting a notch through the step. I do occasionally use a hand-held jig saw blade for this, but a Dremel with a small engraving bit is faster and easier.
I took the Martin Guitar factory tour and observed one guy cutting string slots in ebony bridges with a jig saw. He would do one slot about every 3 seconds or so! He'd stick the thin blade down the bridge pin hole and rock/tilt the jig saw forward. I was amazed!
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  #29  
Old 10-19-2014, 02:24 AM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
I took the Martin Guitar factory tour and observed one guy cutting string slots in ebony bridges with a jig saw. He would do one slot about every 3 seconds or so! He'd stick the thin blade down the bridge pin hole and rock/tilt the jig saw forward. I was amazed!
Once again, slots are different from ramps. I use a saw for slotting the holes. With practice, it can be done in a few minutes.
The only Martin factory bridges with ramps are those on the cheaper models. They can be identified by the lower location of the holes, which are slanted parallel with the saddle. Those ramps are cut with a CNC machine.
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  #30  
Old 10-19-2014, 11:13 AM
BothHands BothHands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanPicker View Post
I took the Martin Guitar factory tour and observed one guy cutting string slots in ebony bridges with a jig saw. He would do one slot about every 3 seconds or so! He'd stick the thin blade down the bridge pin hole and rock/tilt the jig saw forward. I was amazed!
Ah HA! That's a great idea. No way am I going to use my powered jig/scroll saw for slotting my bridge pin holes, BUT... if I can work out a holder for jigsaw blades that will enable me to go slowly and incrementally, that will work.

Thanks

PS. In re-reading, I see John Arnold mentioned using a hand-held jigsaw blade in his post #27 above.

Last edited by BothHands; 10-19-2014 at 01:37 PM.
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