This changed my thoughts!!!

[Xtremca]

Originally Posted by moon

You won't actually get the amps: just a handful of snapshots of specific amp settings which won't cover the full range of sounds it can produce - the same canned tones which everyone else with a Kemper is using.

Sounds like a good reason for some a/b blind testing to see if we can really hear the difference.

[moon]

I'm not criticising the sound quality - it's undeniably good - but this is a very specific tool. All it does is capture a sound at specific amp settings. It cannot sample the rich interactivity of a tube amp. For example, you could profile a crunchy Tweed Deluxe tone with the Kemper but you'll never be able to profile the way the amp responds to its famously interactive controls.

That for me is a big part of music: learning how to dial in a sound and exploring what your gear can do. A lot of songs have been written after someone fiddled with some knobs and was inspired by a cool new sound. Not much scope for originality or innovation if everyone is simply working with the same list of presets. That's why I want a Kemper law to outlaw the loading of sounds which weren't profiled on the same box.

There's another potential problem with presets and workflow. Suppose you have half-a-dozen different guitar sounds in mind for a track - like this Dr Z Maz 18 video. If you know your gear you can dial them in quickly by twiddling a few knobs or plugging in a pedal (incidentally the Kemper won't react to pedals like the amp it's profiled..). With the Kemper you'll have to search for the right preset and if you've ever hunted through a large sample library you'll know what a long and tedious process that can be. An amp is a more evolved interface for controlling sound.

So I don't think the Kemper could replace a real amp as a creative tool. It may have other uses, performance for example: but would the audience feel they're being short-changed if the band couldn't be bothered to bring their real amps?

[el_kabong]

Originally Posted by moon

I'm not criticising the sound quality - it's undeniably good - but this is a very specific tool. All it does is capture a sound at specific amp settings. It cannot sample the rich interactivity of a tube amp.

Moon - I think those are valid points. Done properly, I'm actually more excited about where software modeling might be headed. When and where the actual circuit, tubes, and other components can be accurately mapped and tested in the development of a dynamic software model, I suspect we'll see more progress in the long run.

I mentioned Scuffham's S-Gear earlier as an example of where I think this process might be heading. It is, after all, still physics, including the moving speaker cone, etc. It's just that most modeling software that is available is still far too simplistic...but it's getting better very quickly.

By the way, nice video...the Maz is on a short list of possible "real" amps that may yet win the day in my own tone quest, though lately I'm wrestling more between something like the Ceriatone OTS, Mesa Lonestar Special, or others along those lines.

[arie]

Originally Posted by Markedman

Tube amps can read my mind sometimes and leave me thinking, where the heck did that come from?

hah hah! that's funny. i'm just the opposite. i don't want an amp thinking on it's own. i tell my amp what to do. what if you had a manic-depressive tube amp off it's meds and having a bad day?

i play a lot of extreme death metal and having all that tube saturation just gets in my way so i'm all for solid state but tubes do serve their purpose. i had an old ampeg v4 stack for years and years. it had vintage tubes when it was built. very hard to find and very expensive tubes -and lot's of them. it had a 4 tube power section with 6l6gc's and a solid state rectifier. an accutronics reverb tank with lock out and a shock mounted chassis -linden new jersey's finest. 4 nos power tubes and biasing cost me nearly $400 back in the early 90's. i found myself using a line 6 in the studio more and more and when i had the chance i bought one for myself. sold the v4 and haven't looked back.

i think only the musicians can hear the difference between tube, soild state, and modeling. out in the crowd ime, the audience just really wants to get slammed in the face with 30,000 watts coming from the pa columns. for them it's about experiencing their favorite songs live.

[perttime]

That's not an amp. It's a computer.

This is an analog transistor amp:


Most can afford it. The guy (Tim Lerch) says it is about equal in power with a Deluxe Reverb.

[moon]

Originally Posted by el_kabong

By the way, nice video...the Maz is on a short list of possible "real" amps that may yet win the day in my own tone quest, though lately I'm wrestling more between something like the Ceriatone OTS, Mesa Lonestar Special, or others along those lines.

I'm also tempted by the Maz 18 - and even more by the Lonestar. The Maz always seems to sound very competent and versatile and the Lonestar throws out some spectacular, rich clean & overdrive tones with single coils in the demos I've seen.

I like to build my own amps and at the moment I'm trying to figure out a separate dual EL84 power amp design which will work with a range of discrete preamps: Matchless Spitfire, Lightning, Goldtone GA-15 and a Lonestar (if I can figure out the complex relay switching..).

That should do it.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by moon

The Kemper has very good sound quality but it can't model the way different amp circuits and tonestacks respond to control tweaks. All it does is store snapshots of specific settings. You don't have the rich interactivity of a tube amp with all its quirks and sweet spots to explore. I think that's quite an important part of the creative process. Calling up presets from a list is no substitute. I'd see the Kemper in specific audio-engineering or performance niches where you might want to capture and re-use a specific sound but less useful as a creative tool for sitting around exploring sounds.

However, we have to pass a law that says you can't load any sounds into it which you haven't created and sampled yourself. There's something incredibly soul-less about pressing a button to call up sounds from a list of presets created by other people and it's kind of alarming to wonder what might happen if Kemper technology drops significantly in price, as it inevitably will. Want to sound like Brian May? Jimmy Page? Just press a button. There's nothing very original or personal about music made with exactly the same sounds everyone else is using.

There was a time when almost every rock and metal guitarist was using a Sholz Rockman (I still have one). Then there was a time everyone was using an ADA MP-1 preamp (I used to have one and miss it!) At least the ADA had real tubes...

Listen to today's popular music. It all sounds the same more or less. There is actually software the record companies use that "predict" whether a song will be a hit using a database of millions of songs and analyzing chord progressions, tempo, time, etc...

Modeling and profiling will only get better, and it won't be long before every nuance of an amp's circuitry is emulated. It's done with computer technology and old video games.

[el_kabong]

Originally Posted by moon

I'm also tempted by the Maz 18 - and even more by the Lonestar. The Maz always seems to sound very competent and versatile and the Lonestar throws out some spectacular, rich clean & overdrive tones with single coils in the demos I've seen.

I like to build my own amps and at the moment I'm trying to figure out a separate dual EL84 power amp design which will work with a range of discrete preamps: Matchless Spitfire, Lightning, Goldtone GA-15 and a Lonestar (if I can figure out the complex relay switching..).

That should do it.

Hey Moon:

I'm working my way up to an amp build to...the reason I mentioned the Ceriatone. But, recognizing there are only so many hours in the day, days in the year, and (at this point) years left in my life, I may just end up jumping that step...dunno. I have a really good go-to, electronic's guy to help me and I'm in the middle of reading Merlin Blencoe's book (alas, Chapter I for the third time ), but not sure I'm up to the challenge yet...we'll see just how steep the learning curve might prove to be.

Regardless, I am increasingly convinced that a Dumble style amp will suit me best. I'd really love to spend some time with all of the usual candidates, but lately I'm really tempted to just pull the trigger on a Lonestar. The problem is that I've done that before and ended up disappointed to one extent or another...and that would be a real step-up in price.

For what it's worth, that's one of the reasons I'm so surprised that a $99 plug-in like Scuffham's S-Gear has been so supremely satisfying. If you've not had the chance to try it, I seriously recommend it. He offers a free 15 day trial. I did that and it ate me up when it expired...waited two weeks and couldn't stand it anymore...had to buy it, ha, ha. For now, it will tide me over while the "real amp" search continues.

Cheers

[moon]

If you know how to solder, and if you've got good instructions, anyone can assemble an amp kit - even without a friendly electronics guy at hand. Take the time to do good solder work and it should work first time.

[Markedman]

Electronic drums sound good to some people, they mimic well also, they're solid state.

[el_kabong]

Originally Posted by moon

If you know how to solder, and if you've got good instructions, anyone can assemble an amp kit - even without a friendly electronics guy at hand. Take the time to do good solder work and it should work first time.

For what it's worth that's almost a verbatim quote from what my electronics guru has told me...thanks for the encouragement.