Question about Preamps and Pickups

[SFCRetired]

I am not very schooled in acoustic amplification. My A/E guitars have always had the mounted preamps.

But I recently purchased the Martin 000M you see in my signature and I was going to have a K&K installed to match the K&K belt clip preamp I also recently picked up, but to my surprise a Fishman matrix natural II was already installed. (owner bought it 3 years ago from a friend but he never learned how to play and I guess didn't even realize it had the Fishman installed. I had to take it out to see what brand it was)

So now I'm wondering if I should just get a Fishman platinum analog, or can I use the K&K, or should I have the Fishman swapped out for a K&K.

My amp is an original Trace Acoustic TA100 I have had for years but has received very little play time.

I don't gig, most likely never will, so I just want something to play around with on occasion and if the need ever does arise I have something that won't embarrass me.

My uneducated thinking tells me a K&K would be better than the Fishman, but then again, how much money should a novice who only wants amplification for the entertainment value on occasion, really need to spend if I can get by with what I have now.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

[MikeBmusic]

Plug it in. Do you like the sound? The answer determines your next step!

[SFCRetired]

yeah I could do that, but asking me about amplification and sound is like asking me to dunk a basketball.

I did plug it in last night straight to my amp and it sounded okay to me. But that really doesn't mean anything.

I'm just curious what people in the know think about the two systems I mentioned. Which one do people think is better. I think I may swap to the K&K and sell the Fishman because I have a problem with under the saddle pick ups. I have never liked them personally, I think they take away from the acoustic sound and that's how I play 98% of the time.

[martingitdave]

I think there are a few schools of thought about this. Here is my synopsis:

USTs (Matrix): They are versatile in a sense that they can be used effectively in both solo and louder band situations. They pickup mostly string and a little body. They are ubiquitous. Some people have experienced degradation in acoustic tone when using the softer USTs. Many of us have not experienced any perceived degradation of tone. Experts like Frank Ford say they do not degrade tone. Matched with a good analog pre-amp, they can sound pretty good. The addition of a body res pedal makes them very good. However, matched with the Fishman digital Aura technology, they sound exceptional.

SBTs (K&K, Trance and others): Many people, including me, think these sound better than USTs in a basic analog installation. Matched with the right preamp, they are very good sounding options. I would say that some people experience feedback in loud band situations because the SB T is amplifying more of the guitar's body resonance, which is a less "controlled" scenario than the UST. But, many use the preamps successfully.

Sound Board Mics (Lyric): These will provide a mostly accurate reproduction of your guitar's actual sound. However, some people fail to recognize that they don't really like their guitar's actual sound amplified and want more bass, or some other variation.

Hybrid systems (Anthem, K&K, VT Enhance, etc.): Some combination of the above, or also including a small goose neck internal mic, that hopes to get the best of each option and minimize the weaknesses of each.

Preamps can be internal or external depending on your needs and preferences. I like internal for the convenience and ease of use when playing. Many people here don't like having that stuff in their guitars. All my guitars are used at home and for playing out, so I just consider them tools.

What I use:

A proprietary option is the ES2 in Taylors which, like a hybrid system, seems to bridge the gap between the SBT and the UST. I like this system the best of the analog systems. As far as the most impressive tone I've experienced, it would be the Aura + in my Martin. It is the most realistic sounding pickup I've heard. And, it should be, because you're not really hearing the pickup. You're hearing a digital simulation of a microphone. The down side is having a UST, if you're in the sound degradation camp, and battery life. Though, I found that the fancy lithium 9V batteries last twice as long in the Aura. So, that mitigates some battery life concerns.

Folks have been able to get great tone with any of the above. Your guitar, playing style, technique, song choices, will all determine the efficacy of any one of these option.

[SFCRetired]

Thank you for that detailed summary. It was very helpful.

[Slim]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

Plug it in. Do you like the sound? The answer determines your next step!

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

I did plug it in last night straight to my amp and it sounded okay to me. But that really doesn't mean anything.

That means everything until you play plugged in for others. Keep the Matrix and it save the expense until you perceive a need. The Matrix Infinity is one of the most popular pick ups on the market and will do a fine job for you. Enjoy it! You got a bonus with your buy. ( Nice guitar, BTW)

Tim

[Br1ck]

First, you plugged it in and it sounded OK. No one else has to validate this. If your amp has an XLR mic input, I'd get a mic and blend the pickup with the mic if you are only going to play around the house.

[SFCRetired]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

First, you plugged it in and it sounded OK. No one else has to validate this. If your amp has an XLR mic input, I'd get a mic and blend the pickup with the mic if you are only going to play around the house.

It does have a mic input. That's not what they first intended with these original TA100's but they found people were using them for mic's so they kept that feature. IIRC

Beings how I don't have that need right now I will probably just hold until I do decide to keep what I have or go with a K&K. I've heard and read good things about them both. I like the idea of that Aura that was mentioned but I also like the idea of getting that pickup out from under the saddle as well.


Oh well, decisions for another day I suppose. I'll play around with it this weekend (wife is out of town and I can get crazy) Thanks for all the assistance.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

I am not very schooled in acoustic amplification. My A/E guitars have always had the mounted preamps.

But I recently purchased the Martin 000M you see in my signature and I was going to have a K&K installed to match the K&K belt clip preamp I also recently picked up, but to my surprise a Fishman matrix natural II was already installed. (owner bought it 3 years ago from a friend but he never learned how to play and I guess didn't even realize it had the Fishman installed. I had to take it out to see what brand it was)

So now I'm wondering if I should just get a Fishman platinum analog, or can I use the K&K, or should I have the Fishman swapped out for a K&K.

My amp is an original Trace Acoustic TA100 I have had for years but has received very little play time.

I don't gig, most likely never will, so I just want something to play around with on occasion and if the need ever does arise I have something that won't embarrass me.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

If you're playing mainly at home, the Fishman Natural II should sound good, as is, through your Trace amp, especially if you play lightly to moderately aggressively. A UST pickup can add distortion, called "quack" when the guitar is played hard as the pickup can generate a voltage spike beyond the headroom of the preamp.

You can also route the output of your onboard Fishman Natural II through an external Fishman Aura Pedal and get the benefits of Aura Imaging. All you would do is select an Image that sounds good from those resident onboard the Aura Pedal or, better yet, you can download Aura Images of your guitar from the Fishman Aura website. The Aura Images that were made for your guitar model will generally result in the best amplified tone.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

I like the idea of that Aura that was mentioned but I also like the idea of getting that pickup out from under the saddle as well.

As mentioned, as long as the Matrix pickup of the Fishman Natural II system was properly installed, there shouldn't be any noticeable degradation of the acoustic tone of the guitar, so you can rest easy on that factor.

[SFCRetired]

Thank you SpruceTop

[jseth]

Easy answer... ascertain whether the Fishman Matrix is "active" (needs a battery inside the guitar) or passive... make sure it's working properly and plug it into your race and have fun!

You ABSOLUTELY DO NOT need a pre-amp, whether the Fishman is active or passive; that will just change how you "tweak" your amp when you plug it in... also, IF it's an active pickup, realize that the battery only drains when you have a cord PLUGGED IN to the guitar...

The Fishman should sound just fine your needs...

[SFCRetired]

Yes it has a battery and I did change that and plugged it into my Trace. Everything works as it should.

That's when I realized it had a pick up. I got the guitar and was looking it over and saw the battery inside mounted up by the neck block. It was a pleasant surprise because I was going to take it in and have a K&K installed Saturday.

The reason I don't like a UST is because they act as a shim under the saddle and while that is not problematic now, it could be in the future. The action was at 1/8 inch. Last night I took it down to a tad under 3/32 and it plays fine, and there is still saddle left with good break angle. But there isn't what I would call a "lot" of saddle left should it need to come down in the future.

I am going to take the advice of just play it as is without a preamp, because I basically have that in my Trace anyway, and I don't plug in that often. But I got this guitar to be my A/E should I ever want or need one since I sold my Pro Tak. My Ovation is electric as well and so is my G series Tak, but they are not on the same level as this is.