Bose L1-Falling out of love-replacement??

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Thanks again to all.

I've asked for some input over on the Bose forums - I can't believe the sound is as poor as it is for no reason, so maybe there's something I can do with the T1 EQ settings etc. I KNOW that I should be getting better results than I am from this system, but I'm finding it frustrating beyond belief that I can't dial it in.

Personally I would not put much stock in input from the Bose Forum not likely to very objective.

I realize that the Bose system has many users/believers which is fine for them BUT.
Again It does not surprize me that you have grown tired of your Bose system.
And I would you suggest it is just as possible you have perhaps begun to develop more critical listening skills, as opposed to some failure on your part to "dial it in".
Bose's design focus is based as much on ambience as on accuracy.
Remember the thing that gives Bose it's great horizontal dispersion and the perception of great ambience is its (Articulated Array) with speakers pointed in different directions , which indoors can make it a more ambient because of more diffuse reflections being generated but actually less detailed . Somewhat akin to the same effect as Reverb

The bose system has a number of great features going for it for PA use, chief among them being lightweight, portable, a relatively compact all in one system, that throws a fairly large amount of sound over a fairly large area.

Now to be clear there is nothing inherently wrong with preferring ambient sound, many people prefer it over more critically accurate sound, which is why the Bose products enjoy as much sales and popularity as they do.

But try as I did a number of times to purchase a Bose system every time I did so, I made certain to actually directly A/B it against other similar cost systems .
To my ear when directly A/B against some other systems of similar cost., the Bose is not actually as dynamic or detailed. Great room filling sound but not really "there" for me .

[Andy Howell]

I have used the Bose systems a lot. They are clean and do fill the room. The sound is always a little too clinical for me. The T1 though is a lovely device and sound recordings taken directly from it are extraordinarily good. But then there are other good digital mixers available.

One observation. In smaller rooms where the Bose Compact works well I often think the Compact has a better sound than its big brothers.

[gfsark]

I use the Bose mid range model, the L1-S, which is lighter and more portable than the larger L1-II and bigger and better sounding than the Bose compact both of which I used quite a bit. I really got tired of lugging the big unit around, and it was borrowed anyway, so when I bought my own I got the the mid-range model.

For room filling ambiance, it is pretty much the cat's meow. But then I'm a solo player/vocalist. It's also great outdoors for a couple hundred people (which I did last weekend). People a block away said they could hear just fine, but no one was blasted by the sound. The few times I played for a really noisy group, it didn't seem to cut through well enough, but that's sort of an exception for me.

I'm still learning the Tonematch T1 preamp. There's a lot to learn and I'm no sound engineer. Just started using slight compression which seem to help focus the sound. The T1 has tons of settings. I appreaciate the comments about the clean/acccurate/clinical sound, vs. richer/fuller more focused sound. Could be tweaking the pre-amp would make a difference. But it will always be a wide dispersion system.

Anyway, if you're stuck with the Bose, that's not a bad thing. If you can afford better/different we'll be interested in what you come up with.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by KevWind

......Remember the thing that gives Bose it's great horizontal dispersion and the perception of great ambience is its (Articulated Array) with speakers pointed in different directions , which indoors can make it a more ambient because of more diffuse reflections being generated but actually less detailed...

Kev,
You made so many points in your post of which I am in total agreement with that I feel I have to limit myself in my comments -- or this will become a very long reply.

I am glad you pointed out that the mid/tweeters inside the column are actually pointed off-axis -- this being a means of trying to improve horizontal dispersion. This design, however, is a trade-off: the more-linear decrease in sound level vs. distance achieved with line arrays is also diminished once the speakers are pointed off center.

I often find it surprising that so many folks *see* these column systems and assume that broad horizontal dispersion is automatically a result of such designs -- it ain't so. I personally feel the benefit of these column designs has more to do with simply getting the mid/tweeters up high -- so that the higher-frequency component of the sound is less blocked by physical obstructions.

Anyway, I really agree with your previous post.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

Kev,
You made so many points in your post of which I am in total agreement with that I feel I have to limit myself in my comments -- or this will become a very long reply.

I am glad you pointed out that the mid/tweeters inside the column are actually pointed off-axis -- this being a means of trying to improve horizontal dispersion. This design, however, is a trade-off: the more-linear decrease in sound level vs. distance achieved with line arrays is also diminished once the speakers are pointed off center.

I often find it surprising that so many folks *see* these column systems and assume that broad horizontal dispersion is automatically a result of such designs -- it ain't so. I personally feel the benefit of these column designs has more to do with simply getting the mid/tweeters up high -- so that the higher-frequency component of the sound is less blocked by physical obstructions.

Anyway, I really agree with your previous post.

Two other advantages. The small speakers tend to have better dispersion character on their own. And the smaller speakers tend to have lower individual SPLs and when you are unlucky enough to wind up in the speaker beam the last isn't as likely to feed back. The lower individual speaker SPL and the dispersion from both the small speaker effect and the off axis mounting tend to explain a lot of the magic of the Bose system. Neither of which have much to do with line array performance.

hunter

[AndyC]

Gents,

Thank you so much for the input! Some of the technical descriptions and explanations are a little beyond my expertise level, but I certainly understand the key principles that are under discussion.

I think I need a lottery win so I can have a bank of equipment to choose from to suit individual gigs!

Cheers

Andy

[Puerto Player]

I went the QSC Touch Mix route too and bought a new LD Systems Maui 28 G2. I already have a Maui 5 at our beach place and have been extremely satisfied with it in all ways. I don't use or own any Bose products, not a fan of the man himself and how he's profited off his students hard work. He's a schmuck.

I had/have a full Yamaha PA with S112V speakers and suffered from a lot of feedback when running mic's. I get zero feedback problems with the Maui's. The new 28 is 600 Watts RMS. The 3D acoustic sound is just amazing. You can walk from one side of our yard to the other, probably 80 yards of width, and the sound stays exactly the same. Better mids, bass and highs than I ever got out of the PA.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Puerto Player

I went the QSC Touch Mix route too and bought a new LD Systems Maui 28 G2. I already have a Maui 5 at our beach place and have been extremely satisfied with it in all ways. I don't use or own any Bose products, not a fan of the man himself and how he's profited off his students hard work. He's a schmuck.

I had/have a full Yamaha PA with S112V speakers and suffered from a lot of feedback when running mic's. I get zero feedback problems with the Maui's. The new 28 is 600 Watts RMS. The 3D acoustic sound is just amazing. You can walk from one side of our yard to the other, probably 80 yards of width, and the sound stays exactly the same. Better mids, bass and highs than I ever got out of the PA.

Darn you Puerto, you rascal! You went out and got the latest Maui and didn't share the experience?! Details man! Details! :-)

Now, be a good guy and go download your new firmware 3.0 for the TouchMix. I bet those two sound heavenly together. 600 watts RMS! I'm jealous. Really jealous. LOL

[Puerto Player]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Darn you Puerto, you rascal! You went out and got the latest Maui and didn't share the experience?! Details man! Details! :-)

Now, be a good guy and go download your new firmware 3.0 for the TouchMix. I bet those two sound heavenly together. 600 watts RMS! I'm jealous. Really jealous. LOL

The Maui 28 coupled with the QSC Touch Mix gives me everything I could really ask for. Quite honestly, I'm still on a steep learning curve with the Touch Mix. It can do a lot more than I'm honestly knowledgeable about when it comes to mixing, assigning, and tweaking. I got it sounding great in no time, but as I "dabble" through the screens and start experimenting more, I'm humbled quickly by what good sound guys must go through. I watched the QSC training videos several times before it arrived. It has complete and total control of the entire EQ spectrum (sweepable mids, basically sweepable everything) which is what I was looking for. Again, learning cure for me, but it works really well.

The Maui 28 G2 is one powerful line array. It sounds perfect. I "usually" play my acoustic's into a Rocket Labs Lemon Aid pedal then into either a RNP or a Focusrite pre-amp then into my PA, or Amp. It's a tone that I think is perfect for me and I can usually dial it in without having to use (even the QSC) anything else. When I plug this into the the Maui, I only need to adjust the amount of treble and sub/bass and then use the MV on the Maui to adjust from there. It has, I think, 16 3" mid range speakers, 2 tweets and two sub basses and 600 Watts RMS. The tone is really, really, good and it's that way every time. The new G2 Model of the 28 has the Bluetooth feature on it, which my wife fell in love with on the Maui 5 at our beach house. She streams music from her phone and laptop to the Maui 5 as we relax on the deck, so she was almost selling me on getting the Maui 28 when I brought up upgrading my PA system at the house.

What's really nice about the Maui 28 though is it does not feedback through mic's. I can mic my guitar, and use a singing mic and have it pretty loud and be 5' from the Maui and it doesn't feed back. That is something I could never do with my powered PA and speakers unless I moved further than I wanted to be from them. Too far.

So, I got bigger, better sound. It's more portable, doesn't feed back, takes up much less room and gives me almost complete mixing and recording control as well for about $1750 total. After I sell off the PA, speakers, power amps, and recorder I'll probably only into it about $800 or so. That's a win.

[AndyC]

The QSC TouchMix is high on my wish list, and I am very confident that it will feature in my next configuration. The Maui 28 G2 seems to have an impressive spec., and the price is good. I'm just a little anxious that the technology is very similar to the Bose I am replacing, so it could be a question of "out of the frying pan and into the fire..."

I'll try and see if there is somewhere I can demo the system to compare.

Thanks again.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by AndyC

The QSC TouchMix is high on my wish list, and I am very confident that it will feature in my next configuration. The Maui 28 G2 seems to have an impressive spec., and the price is good. I'm just a little anxious that the technology is very similar to the Bose I am replacing, so it could be a question of "out of the frying pan and into the fire..."



I'll try and see if there is somewhere I can demo the system to compare.



Thanks again.

You're probably right in your caution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[slimey]

I use the AER 60 for small gigs, connect directly to the amp with no DI. If I'm playing a larger venue the AER becomes my Di and monitor while I connect it to the PA using an XLR cable.
I get great acoustic tone connected to a PA or not. I love carrying my guitar and a small light bag holding the AER and all the cables I need to a gig and that's it. Assuming the gig location has a PA.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by AndyC

.....I think I need a lottery win so I can have a bank of equipment to choose from to suit individual gigs!

Good thought. When I first read your post it became clear you are pursuing different missions. Asking one system to do everything is like asking one vehicle to be a sports car and a pickup truck at the same time, all while getting 100 mpg. You are probably going to end up with two different systems. I know of some groups that have multiple Bose units to cover more ground or when more volume is when needed.

Disclaimer - I don't use a Bose system myself, but I have worked with them and listened to many performances in smaller venues using the Bose columns.

[joeguam]

I used the Bose system for about 150 gigs and then also grew tired of the sound and it left me wanting/needing more.

I've since upgraded to an HK Elements system and have TWO sets of this configuration which I've used for over 300 gigs now:

E435 (Line Array)
E435
EPONE (Extender Pole)
E110SUBA (Subwoofer)

For small-spaced gigs I use the setup above with just a single E435. For large/outdoor gigs, I setup all four E435's with both subs. Because this system is modular and scalable, it allows me to use 1 to 4 line arrays, and 1 to 2 subs, which can fit any need of any gig.

But the one thing that sets the HK element apart from the Bose, JBL and all the other line array systems is that each E435 can be rotated a full 360 degrees and can extend up from just 2 feet off the ground (no extender pole) to 9 feet in the air (fully extended). This allows me to get the most effective dispersion in any room or space.

If you're in the U.K., you can get this system a bit cheaper than we can here in the US as it's made in Germany. Just check it out, happy hunting.

[madmusicltd]

Maybe you just need a secondary PA? I have been using the Bose PS1 with L1 and two B1 Bass Modules, (one B1 for smaller venues). But, I also have a smaller set up with JBL EON10's, and when I do opt for the smaller set up I usually just use one on a pole, with a small mixer. I do not use the T1 with the Bose, but in the end I always prefer the Bose with 2 B1's....