Trance Audio Amulet vs. FRAP

[Vancebo]

I know I am resurrecting a thread that's over a year old but this is something I do know about. Teddy has told me the story of his days working with Arnie Lazarus. The part that answers the original question is yes, the Trance design of the Acoustic Lens is a direct copy of the FRAP (Flat Response Audio Pickup). The piezo material may not be the same that was used in the FRAP. According to Teddy, not all piezo material is the same in regards to tone. Arnie, even though he was a very smart man, didn't keep his patent and lo and behold Trance was born. Okay, it's something like that with a lot of details left out.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by TOCS

I've read a lot about these systems, especially the one by Trance Audio and I'm getting the impression that these systems are a lot alike. I'd just like to hear the opinion from someone who has played both systems which one they prefer and why. Neil Young and few others still use the FRAP, as far as I'm aware of, so there must be something to it, I assume? =)

From what I understand, Neil now uses Trance Amulet systems, too. Gary Hull has told me that the Trance Amulets aren't really like the FRAP transducers but maybe what he meant was that they sense vibrations in more than only three planes as do the FRAP transducers?

[TOCS]

I made this thread mostly prior to acquiring an Acoustic Lens pickup. But I suppose you can never talk too much about this, as it's really a topic with very little info.

While I still haven't tried a FRAP pickup yet, I've come to the conclusion that they're pretty much the same. This assumption is based on reading for hours on the internet, and looking up patents to see how it all works.

I really wish someone had a FRAP preamp lying around that they'd sell though. I vastly prefer the use of external preamps, and I'd like to combo it with my Acoustic Lens, since their impedance levels are practically the same. With a little dedication it might even be possible to figure out the schematic for the FRAP preamp, and construct a similar preamp but with much newer components. Trance used to offer a mono version of their Inducer system: http://tranceaudio.com/inducer/


The preamp above is basically what I'd prefer. It's basically the same as the Schatten preamp I use right now, but properly matched for the impedance level of the Acoustic Lens.

[Vancebo]

So what did you discover after comparing the patents of the Trance and FRAP?

[TOCS]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

So what did you discover after comparing the patents of the Trance and FRAP?

From what I gathered, they're pretty much identical. The design differs a bit since the wires exit the Acoustic Lens from the top and instead in the rear on the FRAP. Aside from that, the sourcing of the materials might differ also, however, since it's just a patent that isn't really specified.

I'm much more interested in the preamping of these pickups, though. An impedance matched external preamp with just a gain knob that runs on a 9 volt battery is really all I need. :P

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TOCS

I'm much more interested in the preamping of these pickups, though. An impedance matched external preamp with just a gain knob that runs on a 9 volt battery is really all I need. :P

Someone here reported using the Trance pickups with an external preamp, if I recall, but I tried and had no luck. With the Grace Felix, which has a lot of gain (and switchable impedance), all the way up, the passive Trance pickups were still very weak. The end-pin preamp of the Trance-M is simple, and unobtrusive. I'd just go with that - it works, and sounds very good. If you don't want a battery in the guitar, go with the Trance Amulet-M Phantom.

The Dazzo's *are* hot enough to use with an external preamp. If you want a single knob, consider the red-eye. Also very good sound.

[Cuki79]

Hi Tocs,

Can you please send us the link to the Trance Audio patent? I have Arnie Lazarus, Fraps patent but not Gary's.

The Amulet lens has 3 piezos inside, so I guess the input impedance and low cut filter input stage must be tuned accordingly.

The Dazzo pickup has only one piezo element. The triangular box serves as a "microphone diaphragm" and is shape to avoid box modes at certain frequencies. The triangular shape pickup patent is hold by Erlhund company in Europe, and the patent is more detailed with experimental data comparing shapes.

Cuki

[TOCS]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Someone here reported using the Trance pickups with an external preamp, if I recall, but I tried and had no luck. With the Grace Felix, which has a lot of gain (and switchable impedance), all the way up, the passive Trance pickups were still very weak. The end-pin preamp of the Trance-M is simple, and unobtrusive. I'd just go with that - it works, and sounds very good. If you don't want a battery in the guitar, go with the Trance Amulet-M Phantom.

The Dazzo's *are* hot enough to use with an external preamp. If you want a single knob, consider the red-eye. Also very good sound.

I use a single Acoustic Lens in combination with an external Schatten preamp, and it works pretty great. The only reason I'd want a different preamp is because the sound is still relatively flimsy. 10 megohm Z is not enough to drive the pickup properly. I haven't been able to figure out the desired impedance level of the FRAP or Acoustic Lens. I've only been able to gather than the Acoustic Lens wants to see an input Z greater than 15 megohm.

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Hi Tocs,

Can you please send us the link to the Trance Audio patent? I have Arnie Lazarus, Fraps patent but not Gary's.

The Amulet lens has 3 piezos inside, so I guess the input impedance and low cut filter input stage must be tuned accordingly.

The Dazzo pickup has only one piezo element. The triangular box serves as a "microphone diaphragm" and is shape to avoid box modes at certain frequencies. The triangular shape pickup patent is hold by Erlhund company in Europe, and the patent is more detailed with experimental data comparing shapes.

Cuki

It's been a while since I last spend some time on the subject, so I don't have all the links lying around anymore. It took me a while to find some of them, but I'll be sure to PM you it if/when I come across it again.

The low-cut filter is one of the reasons I don't particularly like the design of the Trance Audio preamps. I don't know, I just prefer to tinker with EQ further down the line and have the most transparent signal to toy with as possible. :P

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

From my understanding, the Trance Audio products are updated, modern versions of the FRAP system, and with better preamps. Basically, other than nostalgia of some sort, it doesn't make sense to buy an old FRAP system when you can buy something new and better from Trance Audio.

Ken, my real question is: What is the different not between the old FRAP and the current Trance rig, but rather, What is the different between the current Trance rig and the current Dazzo rig?

sm

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Ken, my real question is: What is the different not between the old FRAP and the current Trance rig, but rather, What is the different between the current Trance rig and the current Dazzo rig?

sm

Different designs by different people? The Trance pickup is 2 rectangular transducers that mount under the bridge plate using double-sticky tape. The "M" models have an end-pin preamp, that can be battery powered, or phantom-powered, depending on the model.

The Dazzo is a triangular sensor that mounts on the bridgeplate. Teddy (the inventor) uses glue. You can use any number of the pickups, 2 being the most common. No internal preamp, and is hot enough to use without a preamp, tho a decent preamp as close to the guitar as you can get is recommended. Dazzo's come in different numbers, which indicate the amount of bass response you get, so you can at least in theory match them to your guitar.

Sonically, they're similar, but different. Both are SBTs, both more balanced than K&Ks, with more high end, but again, both are more similar to K&Ks than they are to completely different pickup types.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Ken, my real question is: What is the different not between the old FRAP and the current Trance rig, but rather, What is the different between the current Trance rig and the current Dazzo rig?

sm

Hi Scott, what Doug said.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Hi Scott, what Doug said.

For once someone beat you to it, Ken. You're slowin' down, son! LOL

sm

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Different designs by different people? The Trance pickup is 2 rectangular transducers that mount under the bridge plate using double-sticky tape. The "M" models have an end-pin preamp, that can be battery powered, or phantom-powered, depending on the model.

The Dazzo is a triangular sensor that mounts on the bridgeplate. Teddy (the inventor) uses glue. You can use any number of the pickups, 2 being the most common. No internal preamp, and is hot enough to use without a preamp, tho a decent preamp as close to the guitar as you can get is recommended. Dazzo's come in different numbers, which indicate the amount of bass response you get, so you can at least in theory match them to your guitar.

Sonically, they're similar, but different. Both are SBTs, both more balanced than K&Ks, with more high end, but again, both are more similar to K&Ks than they are to completely different pickup types.

Gee Doug, that's why you get paid the big bucks.

I will add to what Doug said. The FRAP and the Trance are indeed very and I will even add another very, similar. The origin of the wire and piezo and plastic may differ. BTW, Not all piezo material is the same so JJB, for instance may not be exactly like K&K. Piezo material have different tonal characteristics.

Doug mentioned the Bass responses. The Amular M has an adjustment in the endpin preamp to raise and lower the amount of bass. It seems to be a set it and forget it type of thing. The Dazzo has a numbered system. #100s are full bass. You wouldn't put a set of 100's in a guitar unless it was a parlor. 60's 70s and 80s work best for most guitars. My new Goodall has great bass response. 60's worked best. One of my GS Minis has 80's. My R Taylor dread is a very balanced instrument. It has 70's. 70s is his most popular.

[MaurysMusic]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

Gee Doug, that's why you get paid the big bucks.

I will add to what Doug said. The FRAP and the Trance are indeed very and I will even add another very, similar. The origin of the wire and piezo and plastic may differ. BTW, Not all piezo material is the same so JJB, for instance may not be exactly like K&K. Piezo material have different tonal characteristics.

Doug mentioned the Bass responses. The Amular M has an adjustment in the endpin preamp to raise and lower the amount of bass. It seems to be a set it and forget it type of thing. The Dazzo has a numbered system. #100s are full bass. You wouldn't put a set of 100's in a guitar unless it was a parlor. 60's 70s and 80s work best for most guitars. My new Goodall has great bass response. 60's worked best. One of my GS Minis has 80's. My R Taylor dread is a very balanced instrument. It has 70's. 70s is his most popular.

Technically the adjustment raises the volume of lens A. Most installers assign the bass side lens to side A which is what makes your comment a popular one, but 1) it's a volume adjustment not a global tone or bass and 2) you can assign the treble side lens to side A if you choose. One of our customers brought his guitar back to us and we did just that - he achieved a treble boost that he was wanting.

I hope you don't mind my chiming in to clarify that. You're not wrong to call it a bass control but it's controlling the bass indirectly.... kinda. Not sure if I'm being as clear as I mean to be.