ToneDexter with LB-6 vs. K&K; with sound clips

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by troggg

Well he does have a country music song of the year to his name

Isn't the deal with the LB6 that it's a hard install that can go wrong, but if it's done right you're golden?

I think whether it's hard to install or not depends on the quality of your tech/luthier. Mine has never had a problem installing it but I'm sure some less experienced luthiers have struggled to align the piezo elements with the strings and so forth.

The general criticisms that I've heard is that some don't want their saddle to be replaced, don't want the widening of the saddle slot, or the G & B strings being out of phase makes it hard to blend it with other pickups. Personally, I've blended mine with a PUTW #54 with no problem but I've heard it doesn't play nice with SBTs.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by troggg

Well he does have a country music song of the year to his name

Isn't the deal with the LB6 that it's a hard install that can go wrong, but if it's done right you're golden?

I recall that Buddy Cannon was a big Nashville writer. I wonder if Chuck is any relation.

Regarding the LB6, sometimes its necessary to widen the saddle slot for an installation. Its also necessary to shape and hand intonate the saddle, if I recall correctly. Its definitely a job for a pro.


A few months back someone on the forum was complaining about a low signal from his LB6. Its does require a decent preamp with a relatively high input impedance (think Baggs PADI or Fishman Platinum Stage) to operate effectively. I advised him that his BBE Acoustimax wasn't ideal for that particular pickup. Unfortunately, the OP never let us know if he was able to resolve his problem.

[James May]

Regarding the LB6 install, it usually involves widening the slot, and always means intonating and shaping the saddle material. These are things that pros don't have any trouble with.

However, it's finicky because it requires the slot bottom to be absolutely flat and coplanar, so that the pickup assembly's brass bottom rests on in with uniform pressure across the string width. There's very little tolerance for error. Routing the bottom to be that flat is not trivial, and I've also heard that the brass bottom is not always coplanar itself and sometimes requires low temperature sanding to correct it.

In my case, my luthier did a his normal great job with the intonating, but it came back with the G and B strings much lower in volume. (The fact that those are the two out of phase is just a coincidence.)

It took me 5 tries to correct the string balance, but I ended up building up the bottom of the brass below the G and B strings with super glue, in the end by less than 0.001 more height. Now the balance is very good.

So, based on my somewhat limited experience, I think it is one of the trickier ones to get right.

[guitaniac]

I had LB6s installed in three guitars without any issues. My guitar tech did mention, however, that he had once had problems with an LB6 with a bad crystal. That's the kind of thing which Baggs support will replace in a heartbeat. The warranty does stipulate, however, that the pickup must be professionally installed for the warranty to be valid.

I suspect that Baggs support gives some leeway on their warranty rule, because some of their pickups are designed to be an easy user installation. That's certainly not the case with the LB6, however.

[Blueblimp]

To James May:
What was your recording signal path to capture/train the LB6?

[James May]

Originally Posted by Blueblimp

To James May:
What was your recording signal path to capture/train the LB6?

Small diaphragm condenser mic in the "down under" position - 6" out and 6" down from where the upper and lower bouts meet, pointing up at the sound hole.

The guitar, a Voyage Air, has both pickups installed - K&K on tip, LB6 on ring. I used a tip/ring selector into ToneDexter, and captured the performances direct to a RME Multiface. Recording was either in bypass mode or through each WaveMap.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by James May

Small diaphragm condenser mic in the "down under" position - 6" out and 6" down from where the upper and lower bouts meet, pointing up at the sound hole.

The guitar, a Voyage Air, has both pickups installed - K&K on tip, LB6 on ring. I used a tip/ring selector into ToneDexter, and captured the performances direct to a RME Multiface. Recording was either in bypass mode or through each WaveMap.

Silly question, have you tried using the two in a dual source capacity? I'm just curious how well that would work.

[James May]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

Silly question, have you tried using the two in a dual source capacity? I'm just curious how well that would work.

Not silly at all. I suspect there will be issues due to the out of phase G and B, but I'll try it and report back.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by James May

Not silly at all. I suspect there will be issues due to the out of phase G and B, but I'll try it and report back.

Thanks! I've heard that's generally the case and the reason the LB6 is usually just mixed w/a mini mic, if anything. However, I've successfully blended mine w/a Pickup the World #54 via a Baggs MixPro without any phase issues. However, I don't think a PUTW is a true SBT in the way K&K or the iBeam is. The output differences between the two made it an "ok"combination that I've mostly just stopped bothering with.

[lpa53]

Since the TD website says that the product is designed to "restore the missing body sound to an instrument’s ordinary piezo pickup", does the manufacturer discourage it's use for guitars equipped with SBTs like a K&K Pure Mini? Is there any benefit to its use with an SBT over other preamps? What about a guitar with a combo such as the Baggs Anthem SL?

[James May]

Originally Posted by lpa53

Since the TD website says that the product is designed to "restore the missing body sound to an instrument’s ordinary piezo pickup", does the manufacturer discourage it's use for guitars equipped with SBTs like a K&K Pure Mini? Is there any benefit to its use with an SBT over other preamps? What about a guitar with a combo such as the Baggs Anthem SL?

When we say "ordinary piezo pickup" we include sound board transducers like K&K, JJB, Trance Amulet, etc.

K&K pure mini, either passive or active, works great with TD. There are examples from users on this forum, some of our video demos have K&K, and my original post in this thread has the K&K and the LB6.

We believe TD gives great benefit over other solutions because it truly makes your direct sound very much like your guitar's natural acoustic sound.

Blended systems like Anthem will work fine, but the Anthem SL has a crossover arrangement and is not recommended with TD.

[James May]

Originally Posted by James May

Not silly at all. I suspect there will be issues due to the out of phase G and B, but I'll try it and report back.

Just tried a passive blend: 60% K&K with 40% LB6. I refrained from playing the G and B during training. No issues, sounds great!

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by James May

When we say "ordinary piezo pickup" we include sound board transducers like K&K, JJB, Trance Amulet, etc.

K&K pure mini, either passive or active, works great with TD. There are examples from users on this forum, some of our video demos have K&K, and my original post in this thread has the K&K and the LB6.

We believe TD gives great benefit over other solutions because it truly makes your direct sound very much like your guitar's natural acoustic sound.

Blended systems like Anthem will work fine, but the Anthem SL has a crossover arrangement and is not recommended with TD.

Thanks! That's just what I needed to know.

[Lapo]

I really love the clarity and presence of the dexterized lb6 compared to the K&K. Though the tonal hit and pain of installation makes me a little weary. Can anyone comment on how other UST's, particularly the PUTW, compare to the Lb6 in terms of clarity and presence. Thanks!

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Lapo

I really love the clarity and presence of the dexterized lb6 compared to the K&K. Though the tonal hit and pain of installation makes me a little weary. Can anyone comment on how other UST's, particularly the PUTW, compare to the Lb6 in terms of clarity and presence. Thanks!

For my personal taste, the PUTW I/O UST is the best sounding UST that I've tried. I've tried many USTs, including the DTAR Wavelength (#2 favorite), the Shadow NanoFlex, the Fishman Matrix Infinity and three brands of co-axial USTs (Highlander, DTAR & Headway).

I've also used the LB6 in-saddle pickup in three guitars. It has many good qualities, but the I/O UST sounds much better for my taste. (It captures more detail and more top resonance.) The I/O UST seems more top-responsive than any of the other USTs, without getting woofy like the overly feedback prone NanoFlex.

On the plus side for the LB6, its very likely less feedback prone than the I/O UST. With respect to the tonal differences, Dexterizing the two pickup signals might well yield very similar results and negate the advantage that the I/O UST has in that department.