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Old 05-11-2012, 10:28 AM
Ivan Lee Ivan Lee is offline
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Default Best acoustic guitar vocal channel strip

Hey..........

I got the bug again and want to get two stellar channels of channel strips for acoustic guitar, vocals and upright bass. The goal is to print to DAW with as close to done sound as possible (preamp, EQ, Compression). There are so many ways I could do this..... build on what I have or start fresh that I feel a bit overwhelmed. One of the things I value highly though is simplicity and the ability to hit record within minutes of inspiration. With the ULN-8 I feel I already have 8 clean good channels so the ISA428 and the Millennia (see below) are now expendable to help fund the fun.

Like to keep price per chain <$2500

What I have now:
Pres: 4 ch. Older Milllennia Media (Quad pre - came before HV-3), 4 ch ISA428, 8 channels Metric Halo ULN8, SPS-1

Considering: (also putting in used prices where pieces are common)
Millennia STT-1 (~$2250), Pendulum Quartet (no used ~$4K new ouch), Avalon 737 (~$1500 and plentiful), Buzz ARC1.1 (new ~$4K - ouch).

or----
Add Compressor and EQ (SPS1?) to what I have

or----
Start a 500 series rack

or-----
Just keep recording clean and do all comps/eq's ITB (this has been my method for 10 years+)

Any input is appreciated :-)
-Ivan
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Last edited by Ivan Lee; 05-11-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:14 PM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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Sounds like you already have a good handle on some excellent pieces of gear. The Buzz Audio ARC 1.1 looks like a great choice, so does the UA 6176 Vintage Channel Strip! API's are a nice! You already have some great gear. Knock yourself out! I assume you already have a great space and great monitors? Looks like you have nice mics already, Gefell and Lawson. Heck, while you are at it, add a Bricasti M7 Effects Processor and upgrade your converters.

BTW, your music and playing is superb!
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:13 PM
Ivan Lee Ivan Lee is offline
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Hey Rick!

Thanks for the comments......

I see by your website we have similar tastes in these things!

The space can always be improved. My tracking solution is dead, dead and more dead. I took half a room and more or less foamed it in. Both my tracking and mixing spaces are rectangles with a skosh under 8 foot ceilings. The mixing one is large 14X26 but has windows and fireplace and openings. There are 8 bass traps and 8 GIK panels and some misc foam with area rugs over laminate but it still has flutter and a few peaks in the bass. The exact mix position is leveled out pretty good (Adam 2.5A speakers, NS10's, ProTools 10, Metric Halo for converters -- these were my best cross grade when I sold off my PT HD stuff and I am happy with the converters). I used to record bands and acoustic groups back when one could charge decent money but pretty much gave up on that about 8 years ago -- started 8 track Reel to reels, then Adat, then PTHD -- :-)........

But your points are valid in............
Without changing any gear what about improving the acoustic space......
Or or that matter, more mics instead of more preamps..... (though the compressor thing is the one that is calling to me)........

FWIW, in my heyday I had Great River MP2NV and MP2H, Portico 5012, Joe Meek Brick, Avalon 737, some crazy huge mic pre that was handmade in Hawaii, Peavey VMP-2 (don't laugh it didn't suck!)......... from my memory, preamp comparison testing was always like ---- I hear something a little different but never anything major. The exceptions were the 737 comp and EQ sections, that Hawaii one, and crazy as it seems the weird little JoeMeek box (only 100 made, was the first thing the guy did and was about 1/2 space wide and 2 space tall --- it had an enhancer that was really quite killer).............

My long sad story .... LOL........

Keep those suggestions coming..........
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Last edited by Ivan Lee; 05-11-2012 at 02:22 PM.
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  #4  
Old 05-11-2012, 02:56 PM
moon moon is offline
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Some random ideas...

A 500 series alternative: Seventh Circle Audio make some great pres which are good value, particularly if you DIY (you can also buy them ready made). You can fill up a rack as you go along, like the 500 stuff (they're not 500 compatible though).

Charter Oak make a really nice, transparent compressor which gets a few rave reviews. Perfect to preserve the natural sound of an acoustic guitar which you work so hard for, or on the 2 bus for mastering. Depending on what kind of vocal sound you're chasing, you might like something more coloured for that.

I'd try to pick the right mic for the source and forget about EQ. You shouldn't need to do much if you're capturing a really great sound in the first place so I'd probably want to splash the money on some Schoeps CMC641 or similar before anything else. Fantastic sound from a great mic beats average sound with a ton of processing - at least it does if you're trying to capture a natural sound. Other times I guess the processing is the sound.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:09 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Lee View Post
Hey..........

I got the bug again and want to get two stellar channels of channel strips for acoustic guitar, vocals and upright bass. The goal is to print to DAW with as close to done sound as possible (preamp, EQ, Compression). There are so many ways I could do this..... build on what I have or start fresh that I feel a bit overwhelmed. One of the things I value highly though is simplicity and the ability to hit record within minutes of inspiration. With the ULN-8 I feel I already have 8 clean good channels so the ISA428 and the Millennia (see below) are now expendable to help fund the fun.

Like to keep price per chain <$2500

What I have now:
Pres: 4 ch. Older Milllennia Media (Quad pre - came before HV-3), 4 ch ISA428, 8 channels Metric Halo ULN8, SPS-1

Considering: (also putting in used prices where pieces are common)
Millennia STT-1 (~$2250), Pendulum Quartet (no used ~$4K new ouch), Avalon 737 (~$1500 and plentiful), Buzz ARC1.1 (new ~$4K - ouch).

or----
Add Compressor and EQ (SPS1?) to what I have

or----
Start a 500 series rack

or-----
Just keep recording clean and do all comps/eq's ITB (this has been my method for 10 years+)

Any input is appreciated :-)
-Ivan
Given the possible expenditure ($5k), you might want to rent a couple different analog channel strips to see if they will work for you. Of course, you would have the option of using the eq and compressor for tracking (you can do this with ITB plugins too), and you can use the eq and compressor OTB on mix down (again, you can do this with ITB plugins too).

I don't record vocals often and have little experience with Vox. I do have experience with ITB, OTB and hybrid for solo finger style acoustic guitar. OTB is really nice and can help obtain convincing mixes. ITB can also help obtain convincing mixes, but the two are not quite the same. If you're really drawn to analog, I suspect you may prefer OTB because ITB plugins aren't quite there yet in terms of emulating OTB analog gear. On the other hand, ITB plugins can do amazing things, particularly if you are interested in transparent and linear processing.

Another solution is to get two units, a two channel eq and a two channel compressor. You already have decent preamps.

As to choices within your budget, consider used gear. Most of the high end stuff is built like a tank and readily serviceable.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:29 PM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is online now
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Hi!

In the studio where I work we've had six of the Avalon 737s for about ten years and have had really good service from them. The compressor is really nice for voice and bass guitar. The overall sound of the preamp and the way it loads the mic yields really sparkly high end.

We recently added the Neve Portico 5015 preamp/compressor. I love that pre - it reminds me very much of the Neve consoles I recorded on for years. For a little more coin you could go with the 5015 pre/comp and the 5033 compressor. Thot would be lovely.

Bob
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:05 AM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Rent & Try Out at Home

Aloha Ivan,

WARNING!!! HIGH END GEAR DISCUSSION IN PROGRESS!!!

Everything you're considering will take you where you want to go Ivan.

However, I totally agree with Sdelsolray. At the level you're investigating, you should rent different channelstrips & try them out on your rig at home. Also investigate used for OTB & the 500 series of choices as well (that GR 500 pre w/ the GR 32 EQ is killer!). Used & 500's can keep the cost down a bit.

Sure, it can cost some serious money in shipping, but it's the only reliable way I have found to seriously & fully hear the gear. You're not a beginner here, trying to find a way to cheaply get into a Zoom hand-held, for three chord strummed songs, right Ivan?

Over the decades & plenty in the last 10 years, I've spent thousands on mic rental fees , shipping them to & from the Islands. This is because no stores here in Hawaii offer the pro level gear I prefer, simple as that.

I did the same thing with newer mic pre's a couple years back for both guitar & voice, trying out a Pendulum MDP-1 (which I kept) along with the A-Designs Pacifica, GR MP-2NV, John Hardy M-2, & BAE 1073. It was TOTALLY worth it to me. The others were returned or resold later in the case of the Pacifica.

I worked out deals with the supply houses to defray the rental costs/time it takes to get 'em here & back. Would listen over a weekend on my rig with my voice & guitars. I still do that with great mic's today. It works!

For example, who knew that my voice would choose a Mojave MA-200 tube vocal mic over a vintage U87, M-149, U67, TM-1, Lawson L47, Valvet X & a Manley Reference? A home shoot-out weeded out the winner, cheapest of the bunch in this case. But I'm still looking... Because it's fun! Besides, nothing will really help my aging voice now - doesn't matter anymore.

Mercenary, Tidepool, Trew Audio, VintageKing, Coffee Sound, Odyssey Sound, West LA Music, Sweetwater, Soundpure & especially, your local studio's can all help with gear rentals or try-outs.

Yeah, find a nearby studio & rent some time on their channelstrips using you're voice & guitars through your mic's. Or take a trip to a city that has many of those outlets. It's the reason that I take at least one trip to LA every year or so - just to try-out & hear the latest gear.

I agree w/ Moon - mic's & mic placement along with room treatment are where to put most of the dough & time. Of course, the entire signal chain must be of the same quality.

We can recommend stuff all day long here to you, Ivan - and for your entire life over at Gearslutz 'High End' Forum (Ha!). But only YOUR ears matter, my friend. Right?

The information you need at this level is not opinions or words but sounds, Ivan. And not online sounds, live sounds.


ITB Plug-in's like EQ, reverb & comp ARE getting closer to the vintage 1176's, Eventide's, Pultec's & API's of the recent past. You don't really need OTB any longer for most project goals. Plug-in packages from Waves & the convolution reverbs like Altiverb 6 & Izotope's Ozone5 mastering reverb are proving that to me.

I believe that players should also minimize the use of compression (& all FX really) on acoustic guitar, using maybe a tad more on strumming & vocals, unless your mixes are thick with tracks.

For solo fingerstyle guitar I don't use ANY comp - just a great matched pair of Schoeps CMC641's (thanks for the mint replacements, Stephen) in a well treated room. Just two or a few tracks. And as you know, you need the well-treated room to experiment with mic placement outside the typical close-miking techniques. Your nice big room provides plenty of options. Depends on your music & goals for recordings.

Here's how Laurence Juber records:

http://www.premierguitar.com/magazin...se.aspx?Page=2

Here are a sample threads related to your question, Ivan:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...ic-guitar.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...hain-help.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...age-sound.html

You get the point - there are millions of these, with millions of words. Go put an ear on the gear on your rig, Ivan. Rent!

Good Luck!

alohachris

PS: Check out Pendulum's Quartet channelstrips. Cost plenty but are fantastic. Check out something like the Millenium STT. Check out the BAE 1028 mic pre/EQ module & API's "The Channelstrip" too. These are all amazing strips to my ears - But not simple to use, IMO. - alohachris -

Last edited by alohachris; 05-12-2012 at 01:10 AM.
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  #8  
Old 05-12-2012, 06:15 AM
Robert Alger Robert Alger is offline
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I have a GML 2032 that I picked up used in your price range. Preamp - DI - EQ. Wonderfull on acoustics.

John Hardy makes some wonderful preamps - used around $1800 for two channels.

I found the 500 series stuff a bit to small, buttons are close together and I found it more difficult to make small changes then on a 19" rack.

TRY BEFORE YOU BUY
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:43 AM
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:WARNING!!! HIGH END GEAR DISCUSSION IN PROGRESS!!! gotta love it

Ivan : Just going to muse a bit . Seems to me if you sell the Millennia and Focusrite and you keep the SP1 and ULN you already have pretty good conversion, 8 good solid state pres (ULN) and a top notch solid state pre and EQ in the SPS 1. Plus some funding to add to and enhance what you have left, and expand the horizon of the flavor palette with less redundancy . So in all honesty if it were me , I would look to tubes for a good addition and variation.

(Now here I must add a disclaimer :I am a total A Designs fanboy).
For two reasons,
#1. I have, love and will keep my A Designs MP2A tube hybrid 2 channel mic pre. Prior to that I had a Focusrite ISA 220 channel strip, frankly the 220 pre was lackluster by comparison. Or put another way, the MP2A sound is like right in the room up close and personal- more 3D ish. The 220 sound was like in the adjacent room accurate, but ho hum. Which I did not realize until I A/B ed them side by side.

#2 I had the pleasure of meeting Peter Montessi (owner A Designs)personally at a small studio in LA and for a week auditioned several A Design pieces including his Nail Compressor also a 2 channel tube hybrid. it is highly considered as a 2 Bus comp but is also underused IMO as tracking comp especially on acoustic guitar and vocals. So it would give you a double shot use option, (going in as a tracking comp and or coming out as a mixing or 2 bus comp.) It can be set lightly and is transparent until you bypass it, or set more aggressively for just a bit of flavor and is for certain on my next to purchase, list. Plus Peter is the real deal and provides excellent personal service and support.

So for your consideration Why not try an A Designs A MP2 pre and Nail compressor. This will give you two high end channels of solid state (SPS 1) and two channels of very clean high end tube. and at aprox $2500 per unit is right in your budget range, new and warrantied. P.S. I am reasonably certain A designs would let audition before purchase with Credit card number. or could recommend a good local brick and mortar pro shop dealer that would rent or let you audition.

I myself am also not a fan of 500 rigs but its purely personal preference i'm sure .

P.S. In the soudcloud link below both songs are recorded using the MP2A. While ignoring the boring character of my voice and poor guitar technique , put on your engineers ears and listen to the depth,air,and space , some of space and resonance is the Bricasti for sure (which in the song "The Question"is also about the max % of reverb I do.) but the presence is the MP2A.
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Last edited by KevWind; 05-12-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:24 AM
Ivan Lee Ivan Lee is offline
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Hey all,

What a great bunch of input!! Taking them in order --

1) Seventh Circle, always been intrigued but like the cobbler and the shoes, being a EE type makes building my own somehow less appealing :-).....

2) 500 series in general, Such a great idea! If I were recording full bands all the time and needed just one or two of this or that and was patching signal chains together then a big yes. But at heart I am a simple guy and only need a couple of well matched pieces that I find easy to use. In the end price for two great channels is not remarkably different. But the flexibility in the 500 series once you are "in".... amazing!

3) Avalon 737 and Portico 5012 -- had both of these and remember them fondly.......

4) Renting and hearing in my own environment! Absolutely agree. My local pro audio guy is already giving me a loan on a used 737 and some chameleon Labs pieces to get me started. But you guys remind me that with a few dollars and some effort I can bring in any or all of the most likely pieces (STT1, Quartet, MP2A etc....). Very sound advice! I don't know if the 737 will do it but bringing in one or two key pieces to A/B against my current crop can really help reground me as to how much change/improvement/inspiration I receive! Cause........

5) Unlike diehard purists, I have worked ITB for 15 years and have collected some very nice tools that really work well. Past tracking I am still most likely to stay ITB. But I will once again put myself to the test and try an OTB solution vs ITB tools again.... just to re-callibrate.

6) Kev, I also think some tubes are the likely addition to broaden the palette. A-designs has a great reputation but I have never tried their stuff.

7) Alohachris -- any idea about a hi-end Hawaii pro audio maker from like 15 years ago. I want to say it was all black and had a small palm tree logo??

8) Robert, GML also another stelar reputation, I can rent one local so.......

9) And then what if I went for a great ribbon mic and looked at upgrading those M300's to schoeps instead :-)..........

So much fun to think about! But gigs all weekend and have to run.........

Thanks again to all........

Warning.... hi end gear discussion.......... too funny!
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  #11  
Old 04-26-2015, 08:53 AM
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Anyone know much about the ADL600 or the UAD 610 mk2?
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Old 04-26-2015, 01:28 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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I track alot of vocals and guitar, and I really like the Manley DVC. I think it has just enough EQ and compression for what you need. I leave a vocal mic and a guitar mic hooked up to one all the time for quick ideas.
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Old 04-26-2015, 04:03 PM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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The ADL 600, of course is a dual channel mic preamp, not a channel strip. I have read up on these in the past. They are very nice, and well-respected. I have the UA LA-610, not the MK2 version. They are a single channel strip. I think the LA-610 is a very nice, more colored option, and has the compressor/limiter built in. The ADL600 is a clean mic pre. The LA610, a tube pre, has a bit more grit if you drive it hard.

Sorry for such little info, hope this helps!

Rick
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Old 04-26-2015, 04:44 PM
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I seriously doubt you'll hear an audible difference spending more money on a different preamp. I would suggest you stay with what you have and add an EQ and Compressor if you're really desiring that.

Also, I don't see the logic of adding effects on the way in - especially if you want to record quickly when inspiration strikes.

Much, much bigger issues than preamps, in my experience, are:
the song, how well it's played, the guitar, the room acoustics, and the mic - in that order.

Jim McCarthy
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Old 04-26-2015, 06:04 PM
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No doubt the song, room acoustics, mic, technique, guitars are all majorly important.

I'm not looking to spend the amount the OP is...more like up to $2000.

The UA 610mk2 is a channel which is nice but has one mic input.

The ADL600 is less like a channel and more like a pre but has 2 mic inputs.

I record acoustic guitar, vocals and bass

Still not really sure what to go for.

(my room is treated, I have quite nice mics, a couple of quality guitars and my songs...well that's subjective...but I wanna record them)
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