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Old 10-10-2015, 12:48 PM
wayne8 wayne8 is offline
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Default K&K- no feedback

I see lots of folks saying they have problems with K&K pickups because of feedback. I have the K&K Trinity system (K&K Pure Mini plus internal mic) installed in all 3 of my guitars and I cannot get this thing to feedback at all.

Now, granted, I'm not playing at extreme levels. I play in church with 6 singers loud in the monitors, a keyboard medium in the monitor, a bass and electric drums, also in the monitors. I use a Loudbox Mini as a stage monitor, loud enough for all of us to hear (they all follow me). I use the DI out on the Mini to the board for front of house. I do not use sound hole plugs. The mic is positioned as K&K recommends. The blend on the K&K preamp/blender is set to pickup at 50% volume and mic at 50% volume. I am barely in the stage monitor (need to be a little bit so the keyboard player can hear me on the other side of the stage but he has a separate speaker he can turn up).

When I went to pickup my guitars after having these installed, I played them all facing the speakers on a PA in the tech's work room, with no feedback whatsoever. I was 7 feet from the speakers, pointed directly at them and the volume was almost uncomfortable.

At church, the Loudbox Mini is angled at 90 degrees to me, pointing across the stage, and about 3 feet in front and to the right of me (facing left). But I can go sit right in front of it, as close as I want, and get no feedback.

Maybe this will help someone. Maybe not.
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:31 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Do you have a soundman running the mixing console from out in the congregation?
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:52 PM
wayne8 wayne8 is offline
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No. Unfortunately, he who is referred to as our 'sound man' just turns the board on and off and runs the projector.

Our keyboard player has been, and is, a fine sound guy and he set my volume on the board for me at practice and there it stays.
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Old 10-10-2015, 01:54 PM
Slim Slim is offline
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Thanks for your post, Wayne!

I am having a trinity installed in a J-45 this week. I am concerned about feedback as I usually use just minis, no mic. Your post may help me.

Are you using the K&K Trinity Pro Preamp?

Thanks,

Tim
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:01 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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That's great that you are not experiencing feedback! It is helpful to hear but I would still caution to potential buyers that the Trinity system is not the best choice for everyone. The fact that you are low in the monitors definitely helps matters and being seven feet away from the pa speaker also helped. Try getting closer to the speaker and see if you feed back. My assumption is that you will get feedback, especially if you run the pickup hotter through the monitors.

A 50/50 blend is pretty extreme in terms of having no feedback. I don't mean extreme in the sense that you have too much, I would just expect more feedback issues at that blend setting. I have had internal mics in my guitars in the past and even at a blend of 20% mic, feedback was always a problem.

Honestly though, if you are getting a great sound on stage with this system then keep at it! I know most people would love to have this set up work for them so you must be doing something right.
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:16 PM
wayne8 wayne8 is offline
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Yes, I'm using the K&K preamp/blender designed for use with the Trinity. The one with internal EQ. Provides phantom power to the internal; mic.

I left the internal EQ alone since I was able to get the sound I liked with the EQ on the Loudbox Mini. Bass around 10:00, Mids around 10:00, Highs around 1:00. Gain at noon and volume at 10:00. EQ flat at the board. Just to give you an idea, you definitely couldn't talk over my guitar anywhere on stage.

I know, I was expecting to have to dial the mic down a lot farther than that but it works at halfway up so that's where I keep it.

Now, understand, the BLEND of mic to pickup is 50/50 but the volume of each channel on the preamp/blender is only halfway up.

In the next week or so I'll try to remember to put me back full in the stage monitor and see what that does and report back.
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Old 10-10-2015, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
That's great that you are not experiencing feedback! It is helpful to hear but I would still caution to potential buyers that the Trinity system is not the best choice for everyone.

Try getting closer to the speaker and see if you feed back. My assumption is that you will get feedback, especially if you run the pickup hotter through the monitors.

A 50/50 blend is pretty extreme in terms of having no feedback. I don't mean extreme in the sense that you have too much, I would just expect more feedback issues at that blend setting.
Hi guys…
I have K&K dual sources installed in 4 guitars, and don't suffer with feedback.

And I run my internal mic hotter than the pickup.

I can make any pickup feedback, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to NOT feedback. And I don't have issues with it at all, even in a fairly aggressive worship band.

Feedback control is a mixture of good stage management, monitor management, and common sense. For the odd occasion the sound-tech is not available or is out-of-sorts, or someone is too loud, or they cannot take my guitar out of my floor monitor, I carry a feedback buster (big black soundhole plug).

I am not using a K&K preamp - but either my DTAR Solstice or my Raven PMB.



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Old 10-10-2015, 09:15 PM
Slim Slim is offline
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Cool!

I can't wait to get this system installed this week. Glad to know you guys are happy with it!

Tim
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:52 PM
wayne8 wayne8 is offline
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You know, I'm not saying it'll work for everyone. It's just that, after playing various pickup systems for 45 years, I'm finally happy. There's a lot of support for the K&K Mini but there's also a lot of talk about being prone to feedback. That's probably true in certain situations. I'm sure that if I cranked the volume enough, jacked up the bass and wasn't mindful of speaker placement, I'd have feedback. It's just that I wouldn't want people to be scared off when the system might work for some people's situations though it won't for other's.

As for the Trinity, a very good local tech recommended it after having installed dozens. I figured if it was too feedback prone I could always dial down or dial out the mic. Turned out that that hasn't been necessary. But you could dial it out for louder gigs, if it gave you trouble, and still have the mic for quieter gigs.
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Old 10-13-2015, 03:04 AM
tochiro tochiro is offline
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Opposite experience for me. I had the Trinity system with the K&K preamp and I've never played in extreme situations. But feedback (low and medium frequency feedback) was such a problem that I had to have the Trinity removed from my Martin HD28. We tried many things, really many things and a pro soundman came to our rehearsals. OP that's great if you don't experience this!

So if you plan to buy this system you should know that it can sometimes be a big problem. Maybe it depends on the guitar? I have a dreadnought.
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Old 10-13-2015, 01:24 PM
wayne8 wayne8 is offline
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It may have to do with body style. The two that I play the most are an OM and a OOO. I also have it installed in an Epiphone EJ200CE, solid top but maple lam. back & sides. I only played that one long enough to know that it would need to be EQ'd very different from the other two to sound good. Didn't experience any feedback with it, though. Might after I find an EQ setting I like with it.
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:57 PM
Gypsyblue Gypsyblue is offline
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I play at church too, and have K&K's in four guitars and use the RedEye preamps plugged straight into a snake that goes to the PA in the back of the room.

Sometimes I'll get feedback at home but rarely onstage. Only once when I had to sit in front of a large and loud monitor.

I don't know what to make of the experiences the guys who complain about "feedback" and "muddy tone" and all the rest have.
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tochiro View Post
…Maybe it depends on the guitar? I have a dreadnought.
Hi tochiro…
I don't think so…

I have K&K Trinity rigs installed in 4 guitars, and don't have feedback issues even in our fairly aggressive worship band. I have a mini-Jumbo (bigger than a Dreadnought) my main Dreadnought, and 2 OM guitars with K&K Trinity rigs in them.

I always run my mic hotter than the pickup, and maintain a fairly gutsy, big sound when I use it. I also use a stage amp as my guitar monitor and have them remove my guitar from wedges in front of me.

In ears make it even easier.

Feedback control is an issue bigger than pickups, and it is often resolved by stage placement (of me), monitor proximity, use, and placement, where we stand/sit in relation to mains/stage amps, etc.

I have met a lot of sound techs who still don't think to use the High-Pass filter (low cut) on guitars. That alone can eliminate issues in the low ranges.

Feedback is often resolved with things other than ⅓ octave EQ, Parametric tone control or compression.

It sometimes has to do with over-aggressively run subwoofers from the PA. So as a last resort, I just carry a big-black-plug (Feedback Buster) and it has bailed me out with over aggressive subwoofer using techs a couple three times.



I've never played a venue that we couldn't resolve any feedback issues in under a minute. All my preamp/blenders only have 3 way tone without sweepable mids.






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Old 10-13-2015, 08:15 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default I Totally Agree With Larry

Aloha,

I'm in complete agreement with Larry on the issue of feedback at gigs & using the K&K pickup. Feedback control & pickup choice ARE different issues.

If you know how to control your live signal(s) in different types of venues, then there really is no reason why you shouldn't be able to prevent feedback & quickly adjust your signal chain to just about any space. It does however, take knowledge & also the right controls for controlling your sound, like using great EQ. And of course, experience.

I've been gigging solo (but often w/ folks sitting in) with a K&K/AKG 416 internal mic combo for 13 years now - in every type of situation. I never get feedback. Overall, I've been using SBT/internal mic combo's for gigging since the mid-70's. I've always been able to make it work to avoid feedback - using knowledge (like appropriate monitor & stage placement & routing, strolling while listening to the room before you play w/ pre-recorded music running through your system, etc.). Or choosing great control gear (using great outboard EQ's like 1/3 octave Ranes or parametrics w/ sweepable mid's on the better mixers like A&H & Soundcraft, occasionally using soundhole covers, using two speaker sources instead of an amp, rarely using stereo FX as mild compression, or whatever is necessary to avoid feedback & maximize your live sound in a venue). It's a battle man!

For me, that knowledge, plus investing in great EQ, have made the largest differences in controlling my live sound (I use the SPS-1 live preamp). So no, the K&K pickup does not automatically have to feedback at higher pressure levels or in bad venues. It is easily controlled in most live situations and with a mic, is about as natural sounding as it gets - as long as all the sources have independent EQ capability, using quality EQ. It just takes lots of practice to adapt amplified acoustic signal chains to a variety of rooms night to night.

All the best!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 10-13-2015 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 10-13-2015, 10:42 PM
Slim Slim is offline
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Hey Wayne,

Quick post to corroborate what you originally posted. I have, so far, had no feedback issue with the Trinity.

I had the Trinity Pro installed in a J-45 today and tested it at home using a Yamaha DSR112 as a floor wedge. (Guitar=>Pro Preamp=>DI=>Speaker) Without adjusting any EQ on the Trinity Pro Preamp, standing 3 feet in front of the wedge at a fairly loud volume (guessing 85 decibels) there was no feedback. No feedback running 100% of either source or a 50/50 mix.

This is really a pleasant surprise. I thought for sure I would only be able to run a small % of mic. Thanks for your post. I was vacillating between a couple of systems when I read your post a few days ago. Sure glad I gave the Trinity a shot. It sounds really, really good.

Tim
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