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  #1  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:55 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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The primary issues for me in amplifying nylon string Flamenco guitar with active pickup and using effects were a number of issues that were solved (for me) by the following:

1. Pickup /Preamp - Solved by
a. Takamine Palathetic/CoolTube preamp/pickup
b. Cordoba GK Pro /Fishman Presys
(both of these give accurate representations of the sound as active pickups; no "Acoustic Modeling" DI's necessary or even desirable...

2. The advent of FRFR speakers in the modeling world for electric guitars (all the correction/compensation for electric guitars is done in the electronics, so the Aux In gives accurate representation of the signal.

That said, I just got my hands on a Line 6 Helix, and it is truly staggering - an absolute monster. Even the electric patches sound great (albeit at reasonable sound levels; control of input gain is critical), but the magic is in the input section (I also have Helix Native VST and the Helix hardware adds something "special" compared to my Scarlett 2i2 and GT-001 dry inputs to Ableton Live. I don't know what it is - perhaps their auto impedance function, but whatever it is... WOW!

(the other interfaces are very good, I have no complaints, but for me there is a significant difference that can't be tweaked via their controls...)

I'm monitoring through an iLoud portable speaker (which is the best small FRFR speaker I have found) using the Aux in and the sounds and effects are just mind-boggling. (Except for the reverbs, for which an update will be coming soon around NAMM 2018 according to Line 6.)

My search is OVER at last! I can't imagine the sound getting any better. for my application ..
Sorry to rant, but it has been a long and painful journey....

(Note: In addition to Native, there are many, many other solutions I have tried that are excellent, both HW and Software (e.g. GT-1, Katana, HD500x, Amplify, S-Gear, Positive Grid Bias, etc.. ) - these days all of them have real value. But the Helix is really exceptional for me. I haven't tried Kemper, or Axe-FX.. remember, I am playing nylon string guitar, though ....)

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 01-12-2018 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:12 PM
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rschultz rschultz is offline
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Yup, I love mine. The sounds are great, and the flexibility is amazing.
What FRFR are you using? I've got a Line6 Stagesource L2t
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:15 PM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Right now I am going into an iLoud portable from the phone out to the Aux In Jack ...
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:36 AM
Ed_Saxman Ed_Saxman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
I just got my hands on a Line 6 Helix, and it is truly staggering - an absolute monster. Even the electric patches sound great (albeit at reasonable sound levels; control of input gain is critical), but the magic is in the input section (I also have Helix Native VST and the Helix hardware adds something "special" compared to my Scarlett 2i2 and GT-001 dry inputs to Ableton Live. I don't know what it is - perhaps their auto impedance function, but whatever it is... WOW!
Hi BuleriaChk!

I'm also interested on the Helix, and there is not many people out there using it with a nylon strings, so I have some questions for you:

óMost of people seems to be using the Aux Input with (pre-amplified) acoustic guitars on Helix. Did the Guitar IN worked better for you?

óDo you have the Helix Floor or the LT? (I'm asking becouse the LT doesn't have that Aux-In)

óI did found some threads about acoustic guitars in the L6 forum but most of people says that worrying "it can work, but...". Seems like you can tweak all day long, mess with IR's, etc, but, in conclusion, there is no specific acoustic-oriented tools.

Instead of the Helix floor, I'm thinking about to get the Boss AD-10 for my nylon guitar, AND the Helix LT for my electric. The overall price is very similar compared with the Helix floor in Europe.

BUT in this case I will need another Pre+MFX for my horns, (the saxophone is my main instrument) as the Helix LT doesn't include mic input.
Perhaps a impedance converter may work for the mic using the guitar input, as my electric is a JTV Variax using the VDI connector?

The Helix floor could be my "all in one" solution, but it is precisely the lack of dedicated acoustic guitar FX that that keeps me in doubt.

Last edited by Ed_Saxman; 01-28-2018 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:41 AM
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rschultz rschultz is offline
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Hogwash. I use my Helix Floor for both electric AND acoustic... and itís great. The Mic preamp works well, and it has plenty of worthy effects for acoustic. I also have a dual source acoustic, Helix mixes these signals for me.

Effects wise, I use comp, PEQ, Reverb and modulation primarily. It truly has simplified my setup and given me so much more flexibilty at the same time. I canít imagine why it wouldnít do the same for your Nylon stringed guitars.
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Old 01-28-2018, 08:53 AM
tochiro tochiro is offline
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I too use a Helix with acoustic (aux input) and electric guitars. You can get a great sound with the compressor, mic preamp, Eq, delay and reverb. It's very versatile and convenient live.
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Old 01-28-2018, 10:31 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Saxman View Post
Hi BuleriaChk!

I'm also interested on the Helix, and there is not many people out there using it with a nylon strings, so I have some questions for you:

—Most of people seems to be using the Aux Input with (pre-amplified) acoustic guitars on Helix. Did the Guitar IN worked better for you?

—Do you have the Helix Floor or the LT? (I'm asking becouse the LT doesn't have that Aux-In)

—I did found some threads about acoustic guitars in the L6 forum but most of people says that worrying "it can work, but...". Seems like you can tweak all day long, mess with IR's, etc, but, in conclusion, there is no specific acoustic-oriented tools.

Instead of the Helix floor, I'm thinking about to get the Boss AD-10 for my nylon guitar, AND the Helix LT for my electric. The overall price is very similar compared with the Helix floor in Europe.

BUT in this case I will need another Pre+MFX for my horns, (the saxophone is my main instrument) as the Helix LT doesn't include mic input.
Perhaps a impedance converter may work for the mic using the guitar input, as my electric is a JTV Variax using the VDI connector?

The Helix floor could be my "all in one" solution, but it is precisely the lack of dedicated acoustic guitar FX that that keeps me in doubt.
Why buy a Helix if you're just going to use the Aux In?????????????? (BTW, I have the floor)

1. part of the magic of the Helix is its input guitar handling of auto impedance matching, etc.
2. With the guitar input, it is up to you, but it mostly depends on the quality of your guitar preamp/pickup. The Helix will not correct an poor input signal, it is not an acoustic guitar processor (although you can tweak it to make it work as well as any of the other "acoustic" solutions available. Most of these solutions are for steel strings, not nylon strings, and so are irrelevant.

For nylon, the signal should be pristine going into the Helix. For me, this was a major problem for years (that and the lack of FRFR speakers), but the best solution is a nylon string guitar with pickup/preamp installed by the mfr. - i.e.,Takamine, Cordoba ... I tried most of the others, and the only solution that even came close was a Schertler DYN-G

Don't overdrive the guitar - and there will probably be harshness at high (e.g. concert stadium) levels - for that you'll probably need to work with a sound engineer. But tech is constantly improving, and I"ve been impressed by some of the speaker systems now available (e.g. QSC 8.2)

I find the overdrive/distortion selection sufficient, since it adds an emphasis to the strummed chords of Flamenco, and adds sustain to individual notes. But use sparingly and keep track of your levels (the volume control on the preamp of the active pickup can be used to "back off"" the signal, just like an electric guitar.

And there are new reverbs coming shortly in the next firmware update, (think Blue Sky..) plus all the legacy effects from the HD series.

Using the Aux In defeats the very reason for being of the Helix - those that use it probably don't have a good signal coming from the guitar to begin with...

FWIW, IMO, YMMV, etc., etc......

IMO, YMMV
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Old 01-28-2018, 10:43 AM
Ed_Saxman Ed_Saxman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rschultz View Post
Hogwash. I use my Helix Floor for both electric AND acoustic... and it’s great. The Mic preamp works well, and it has plenty of worthy effects for acoustic. I also have a dual source acoustic, Helix mixes these signals for me.

Effects wise, I use comp, PEQ, Reverb and modulation primarily. It truly has simplified my setup and given me so much more flexibilty at the same time. I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t do the same for your Nylon stringed guitars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tochiro View Post
I too use a Helix with acoustic (aux input) and electric guitars. You can get a great sound with the compressor, mic preamp, Eq, delay and reverb. It's very versatile and convenient live.
Thank you, fellas!

I'm pretty sure that Helix's compressor, mic preamp, PEq, modulation, delay and reverb both of you mentioned are stellar, but still there are some things, like the body resonance or the antifeedback with notch settings on the Boss AD-10 that still keeping me wanting this device somehow, not to mention the ease of use and portability.

I have heard some demos that the "Thomann" store have on their website, and I even thought that the AD-10 seems to be that kind of easy peasy incredible acoustic instruments enhacer with which many of us are still dreaming.

The Helix seems a very powerful device but I think it's a shame that still there are not a small set of effects and preamps designed specifically for acoustic guitars. Something similar to the acoustic expansion pack that can be found in applications such as Bias FX IOS.
This is the only expansion I bought inside this app, by the way. But it worth the price, if you ask me, as they give you the esential tools that you need for that specific task, just as the AD-10 does (or seems to do).

The fact that the LT doesn't have mic input doesn't make good omens about Line 6 planning to develop specific effects for mic/voice, either.
Somewhere I read that to match other multi-effects specifically designed for mic/voice (like the Tc-Helicon Voicelive series), they should work with "formants".
I do not know a thing about that, but I think Line 6 will hardly do this if the Helix Floor is their only "HX" device with microphone input, right now.
The new "Helix Effects" does not have a microphone input either.

Unfortunately, I can't afford both the Helix Floor and the AD-10 right now, so I thought the LT may work, but the fact that it lacks both Aux-in AND mic Input is a major drawback for me.
Well... I already have put my HD500 on sale, but still have some other devices I could sell.

Still thinking about it.
So I have 2 choices right now: Helix Floor or AD-10+Helix LT+BOSS VE-20.

Thank you again, dudes! I am delighted to know about this forum, with people like you.

Last edited by Ed_Saxman; 01-28-2018 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:12 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Saxman View Post
Thank you, fellas!

I'm pretty sure that Helix's compressor, mic preamp, PEq, modulation, delay and reverb both of you mentioned are stellar, but still there are some things, like the body resonance or the antifeedback with notch settings on the Boss AD-10 that still keeping me wanting this device somehow, not to mention the ease of use and portability.

I have heard some demos that the "Thomann" store have on their website, and I even thought that the AD-10 seems to be that kind of easy peasy incredible acoustic instruments enhacer with which many of us are still dreaming.

The Helix seems a very powerful device but I think it's a shame that still there are not a small set of effects and preamps designed specifically for acoustic guitars. Something similar to the acoustic expansion pack that can be found in applications such as Bias FX IOS.
This is the only expansion I bought inside this app, by the way. But it worth the price, if you ask me, as they give you the esential tools that you need for that specific task, just as the AD-10 does (or seems to do).

The fact that the LT doesn't have mic input doesn't make good omens about Line 6 planning to develop specific effects for mic/voice, either.
Somewhere I read that to match other multi-effects specifically designed for mic/voice (like the Tc-Helicon Voicelive series), they should work with "formants".
I do not know a thing about that, but I think Line 6 will hardly do this if the Helix Floor is their only "HX" device with microphone input, right now.
The new "Helix Effects" does not have a microphone input either.

Unfortunately, I can't afford both the Helix Floor and the AD-10 right now, so I thought the LT may work, but the fact that it lacks both Aux-in AND mic Input is a major drawback for me.
Well... I already have put my HD500 on sale, but still have some other devices I could sell.

Still thinking about it.
So I have 2 choices right now: Helix Floor or AD-10+Helix LT+BOSS VE-20.

Thank you again, dudes! I am delighted to know about this forum, with people like you.
From my experience, acoustic processors like the AD-10 can be replicated via EQ controls pretty much - I find them practically useless (since I already have tone controls on my Fishman Preamp (and don't even use those), and the "resonance" effects on nylon strings (for me) are almost indiscernible.

Don't get rid of your HD500 if you're not going to get a Helix... just try using the effects (for example "Tube Driver" overdrive is a good starting place, without anything else in the chain. The HD500, while dated, is no slouch.

I think that once you have a Helix, you are pretty much done with hardware for the foreseeable future. Line 6 is a fantastic guitar company (check The Gear Page) and the Helix will be around for a long, long time with updates coming regularly. With Boss not so much, but I would upgrade to HD500x if you're going to sell your HD500. IMO

For just guitar effects, the Boss GT-1 is awesome (i.e., stunning) at its price point..... for a single pedal, I found the OD-1x to also be excellent for my application. But even Amplifi/Pod Farm effects are excellent if you know how to use them... and finally there is always the Behringer TO800 for $20.
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:16 AM
robj61 robj61 is offline
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Isn’t the aux in of the Helix designed to be used with active pickup systems, like an acoustic with a preamp built in?
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:18 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Originally Posted by robj61 View Post
Isn’t the aux in of the Helix designed to be used with active pickup systems, like an acoustic with a preamp built in?
The Aux In is designed to be used with whatever you put into it (backing tracks, whatever); it is completely colorless, but doesn't have the "magic" guitar input of the Helix.. When I auditioned the LT some time ago, I noticed a significant difference between that and my audio interfaces (e.g., Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, Boss GT-001). I haven't tried any of the high end interfaces, though...

It may be my imagination, but other users have reported the same experience...

And I certainly would investigate the new HXFX (I don't know if it has the same Input processing as the Helix - eg auto impedance) as well as try the Boss GT-1 (fantastic at its price point)

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 01-28-2018 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:44 AM
Ed_Saxman Ed_Saxman is offline
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Hi!
I missed your post when I was writting my prior one (and editing it many times due to my poor english), sorry.

EDITED: Late again, many post before mine!! I'm very slow writing in english. Sorry, guys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
Why buy a Helix if you're just going to use the Aux In?????????????? (BTW, I have the floor)
1. part of the magic of the Helix is its input guitar handling of auto impedance matching, etc.

For nylon, the signal should be pristine going into the Helix. For me, this was a major problem for years (that and the lack of FRFR speakers), but the best solution is a nylon string guitar with pickup/preamp installed by the mfr. - i.e.,Takamine, Cordoba ... I tried most of the others, and the only solution that even came close was a Schertler DYN-G


Using the Aux In defeats the very reason for being of the Helix - those that use it probably don't have a good signal coming from the guitar to begin with...
I've quoted the parts I'm going to discuss/ask about.

—If your guitar already have a pickup/preamp, why do you need plug it on the Helix guitar In?

My guitar is a Yamaha NCX700C, that have "transducers" and a preamp with EQ onboard. It's has an "active" circuit, feed with 9V battery.
—Should I use a guitar IN or an Aux-in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
2. With the guitar input, it is up to you, but it mostly depends on the quality of your guitar preamp/pickup. The Helix will not correct an poor input signal, it is not an acoustic guitar processor (although you can tweak it to make it work as well as any of the other "acoustic" solutions available. Most of these solutions are for steel strings, not nylon strings, and so are irrelevant.
If so... do you think that the AD-10 was designed for steel strings guitars?

I mean... I know something about piezo guitars needing some kind of "resonance" to restore what the piezo are losing, but again, I'm not sure if my specific guitar needs this.

My previous experience was using the Voicelive 3 Extreme I had. I was using the five "Bodyrez" amps the VL3 had, and some of them certainly enhaced the sound of my guitar in a pleasant way.

But I don't know what kind of magic was used internally to do that. I thought it sounds like nothing more of some sort of EQ combined with pre/post gain settings. Certainly it was not the same tech used on the TC playacoustic or the Bodyrez stomp pedal, as there are more things involved, like compression and a very short reverb (based on what I read in the TC Helicon forum, said by their developers)

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Helix can match the sound of the VL3 bodyrez amps pretty easily. Again, I don't know why the L6 guys are not giving us that instead of so many Hi-gain stuff.

In the same way, I don't have a clue about what Boss are using with the AD-10. Some kind of internal IRs based on the same AIRD tech present in the new GT-1000, perhaps?
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:47 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Saxman View Post

—If your guitar already have a pickup/preamp, why do you need plug it on the Helix guitar In?

My guitar is a Yamaha NCX700C, that have "transducers" and a preamp with EQ onboard. It's has an "active" circuit, feed with 9V battery.
—Should I use a guitar IN or an Aux-in?

If so... do you think that the AD-10 was designed for steel strings guitars?

I mean... I know something about piezo guitars needing some kind of "resonance" to restore what the piezo are losing, but again, I'm not sure if my specific guitar needs this.

In the same way, I don't have a clue about what Boss are using with the AD-10. Some kind of internal IRs based on the same AIRD tech present in the new GT-1000, perhaps?

If your guitar sounds good using an FRFR speaker, use the guitar in. If your guitar doesn't sound good using an FRFR speaker, get a different guitar for active pickups.. Practically speaking, any current speaker system with an Aux In is FRFR through that input.

In my opinion and experience, practically ALL of the "acoustic processors" were made for steel string, or to try to make an electric guitar sound like steel string. None of those solutions did anything for me that couldn't be done with a bit of eq/effects .. at least at relatively low levels (e.g. coffee shop, small venue).

I haven't tried the AIRD of the Boss GT-1000, but if it includes the OD-1x, that definitely is a step up from the GT-100 (which is no slouch)...
All of these guys are getting really, really good.... but with the Helix/LT I don't feel a pressing need to audition the GT-1000. OTH, the Boss GT series has some great things that the Helix/LT doesn't - eg EZ-Tone, the ability to set a system preamp, etc. But since amp simulation is not that important to me except for experimentation, I don't need those. But they are great learning tools, since you can set one preamp to go through all the presets...)

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 01-28-2018 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:40 PM
Ed_Saxman Ed_Saxman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
From my experience, acoustic processors like the AD-10 can be replicated via EQ controls pretty much - I find them practically useless (since I already have tone controls on my Fishman Preamp (and don't even use those), and the "resonance" effects on nylon strings (for me) are almost indiscernible.
Well, in fact, I bought recently an used Roland AC-90, and added a "Love Squeeze compressor" from Rothwell Audio. I really like the sound of this amp, but then I realized that the AC-90 onboard FXs sounds a bit dated for today's standard, not to mention to have to buy two FS-5 to control them (although I already have one).

So the AD-10 seemed to be a good "upgrade" for the whole AC-90 preamp/FX section, as the amp has stereo Line-In straight to the poweramp (and it's even mentioned in the manual of the AD-10), but can I see your point about the EQ and the Resonance, so the AD-10 doesn't seems so appealing to me anymore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
Don't get rid of your HD500 if you're not going to get a Helix... just try using the effects (for example "Tube Driver" overdrive is a good starting place, without anything else in the chain. The HD500, while dated, is no slouch.

I think that once you have a Helix, you are pretty much done with hardware for the foreseeable future. Line 6 is a fantastic guitar company (check The Gear Page) and the Helix will be around for a long, long time with updates coming regularly. With Boss not so much, but I would upgrade to HD500x if you're going to sell your HD500. IMO
Well, I'm a long time HD500 user, but after so many years, I cannot ignore its weak points anymore.
After using my amps (AC-90 and a Cube 80XL, for nylon acoustic and electric guitar, respectively) thru the same Rothwell compressor for some weeks, I tried to back to the HD500 again. But then I thought it was sounding very lacking in dynamics to me (after a couple of weeks using just the amps).
Then I tried to use the same Rothwell compressor on the HD500's FX loop and it's was much better, but noisy (electric Hi-frequency hum/noise that was not present when using my amps)

The 500X doesn't offer anything better, same tech but with those nice led rings and a slightly improved DSP. So I'm done with the HD series, I'm really anxious to sell it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
I think that once you have a Helix, you are pretty much done with hardware for the foreseeable future. Line 6 is a fantastic guitar company (check The Gear Page) and the Helix will be around for a long, long time with updates coming regularly. With Boss not so much

For just guitar effects, the Boss GT-1 is awesome (i.e., stunning) at its price point..... for a single pedal, I found the OD-1x to also be excellent for my application. But even Amplifi/Pod Farm effects are excellent if you know how to use them... and finally there is always the Behringer TO800 for $20.

And I certainly would investigate the new HXFX (I don't know if it has the same Input processing as the Helix - eg auto impedance) as well as try the Boss GT-1 (fantastic at its price point)
While I really like the Roland amps (I have 5 of them, right now), I never liked like their MFX units, dunno why. I have had a GT-001 for a week to compare with my HD500, but always prefered Line 6, both regarding Fxs or amps sims.

Absolutely agree about Line 6 being fantastic guitar company. In fact, I think they are a fantastic software/DSP-dev company that casually makes impressive guitar devices.
Maybe I should say "unfortunatelly", becouse I would like to see Line6 devices for many others instruments, too.
Or a Helix as a kind of universal FX plattform, something like their X3 Live tried to be, with some more mic/voice/acoustic dedicated stuff than the Helix has right now.

Last edited by Ed_Saxman; 01-28-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:43 PM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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The GT-1 is a step up from the GT-001 (and the GT-100). It is comparable to the Katana Amps (and I suspect the GT-10000)....
I found my AC-33 to be meh... it was OK, but..... For FRFR try to audition an IK iLoud portable amp.... or go in the Aux In of a Katana...
Or a QSC K8.2..

Or a Behringer MPA40BT-PRO

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 01-28-2018 at 12:59 PM.
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