How Many Mistakes Do You Find Acceptable?

[revvv]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Zero mistakes that SOUND like mistakes.

I have to ask myself often, "will anybody notice that but you?"

This is the answer. Everyone makes mistakes. In fact, I find myself listening to pro recordings on the radio and finding what I would call mistakes at times. Will the average player or listener hear that mistake? It is highly unlikely.

Music is an art, and much like painting a mistake can be built upon and used for creastivity.

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by revvv

Music is an art, and much like painting a mistake can be built upon and used for creastivity.

Yes that's another thing, the parts that you didn't have a specific intention to play, but you did and you like them when you hear them.

Most of our musical expertise (and a lot of the rest of our lives) is controlled by the older part of our brain, which is more developed but not under our conscious control. One term for it is "adaptive unconscious". Usually when we go off our game and become self conscious, what is really happening is that our conscious thinking is taking control and preventing our earned skills from being used by the subconscious. Conversely when you're having one of those rare, magical experiences when the music seems like it is effortlessly flowing through you, that is when you are the least analytical; the adaptive subconscious is in control. This is often misunderstood as "not thinking about it, just doing it"; it's really more of a different kind of thinking that you can't directly focus on but is always a part of you.

We seem to be threatened by the notion that part of us that we do not entirely control could be the source of our ideas, so we categorize them differently and invent various narratives to explain the process. We may like it when good results happen from "wherever", but we still consciously favor the conscious mind.

The idea of analyzing our work relative to a conscious version of what we call our intentions carries the real risk of us censoring the main source of our abilities, intuitions, and inventions, and a big part of who we are.

Since this is the internet, I'll add one of those disclaimers that shouldn't be necessary; I'm not talking about accepting every clam or elevating slop to mystic knowledge. I am saying that letting your conscious mind do all of the editing of the work done by your entire self is a bad idea, because that part of your brain isn't as musically talented as the other part and kind of has a complex about it.

[ombudsman]

Originally Posted by mc1

sometimes i spend hours editing in minor flaws, breath noise and ringing strings. but it's subtle, and keeps me grounded. it's george clooney on a bad hair day that i'm after. one really good "flub" for the people and i feel my work is done, and the honesty and sincerity can shine through, without worrying that my playing good looks will overshadow the emotion.

it's a somewhat novel approach.

Wow, you must be amazing if you have to invent mistakes. I never had that problem. That sounds exhausting. It's like Don Johnson in the 80s; I hear he had to spend an incredible number of hours in occupational hypnotherapy in order to consistently forget to shave.

[ukejon]

...it's a somewhat novel approach.

You are the man, MC1! And regarding your "novel" strategy, we would expect nothing less. Indeed, I shall follow you into mistakeness....

[mc1]

Originally Posted by ombudsman

Wow, you must be amazing if you have to invent mistakes. I never had that problem. That sounds exhausting. It's like Don Johnson in the 80s; I hear he had to spend an incredible number of hours in occupational hypnotherapy in order to consistently forget to shave.

Originally Posted by ukejon

You are the man, MC1! And regarding your "novel" strategy, we would expect nothing less. Indeed, I shall follow you into mistakeness....

ombudsman, it is a bit of a burden. sometimes i need to do like 12-15 takes in a row to finally flub up. and of course, because i don't want the mistake to stand out as unnatural, i need to keep playing in the spot and position, same dynamics and tempo, same vision in my head, same emotion in my heart. perhaps a big don johnson poster on the wall would help. hmmm.

ukejon, a nice easy way to start is to mix in a 18-wheeler going by during the quieter sections. wheeeeee-ohhhhh-chush (the chush was the air brakes).

[moon]

There's a saying: an amateur practices until he can sometimes get it right; a pro practices until he can never get it wrong.

Never underestimate how much work you have to put in. Success is only partly due to talent; you've still got to make it happen with hard work, and a lucky break or two. You've got to really love music to practice for hours each day - but if you do it's a privilege to have the opportunity do that.

Motor skills are developed by repetition. There's no easy way round that - except remember to relax. If you try too hard your muscles will tense up and you end up fighting against yourself.

That's actually a huge part of learning to play a difficult section. You're trying to bring a very precise set of movements into focus. If you don't have a clear picture of that, your brain will send lots of "contract!" signals to the wrong muscles: it's not just that you have to learn what to do but you also have to learn what not to do.

Playing the section very slowly and then gradually building up speed lets you "see" how to do it, and eventually your fingers will seem to do it all on their own without thinking.

When it's time to perform, in front of a mic or an audience, that's a different mindset. Performance is about much more than motor skills; it's about communication. You just have to get lost in the feel of the piece and trust your fingers to know what to do.

If you do make a mistake the worst thing to do is to stumble over it. Rythmic errors which break the flow can be much worse than a fluffed note. Like everything else, you've got to have the confidence not to be defined by your mistakes. You can carry them; they're going to remember the good bits too.

I used to do a bit of rock climbing. On a difficult section where every muscle is straining to keep your body balanced on some tiny holds, if you lose concentration for a second you'll be off instantly. When you're right at the limit, all there is to stop you from falling is your own belief and willpower.

Who wants an easy life though?

[rick-slo]

During a recording a wrong note may make you tense up. Or you have played almost the whole piece well but that itself tenses you up towards the end of the piece and your playing gets stiff.

Try to relax. Tell yourself it is ok to make a mistake during a recording. Yes, you want to play well but perfect playing is unrealistic most of the time. You are trying to make a "perfect" product, not play flawlessly all the way through.

To get ready for recording deliberately practice a piece as if recording but if some type of mistake is made go back a measure and repeat. If you make the same mistake then stop and work on that section. Learn how to "fix" mistakes in a way you can apply during a recording. If there is too much of this happening then work on the piece and record another day. If you go ahead and record and you make a mistake, go back a measure and "fix" it. On top of that you can play through the piece a few times - likely your interpretation will vary some and you may prefer one play through over another. Etc and etc.

Figure out what works for you that leads to the least stress.

[KenW]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

If you go ahead and record and you make a mistake, go back a measure and "fix" it.

Jerry Roberts once told me that this is exactly how Chet Atkins did it.

On top of that you can play through the piece a few times - likely your interpretation will vary some and you may prefer one play through over another. Etc and etc.

I posed the question of comps of multiple takes vs. continuous takes awhile back, and in actual practice, it has not been an "either or". I have been doing both. Almost always, one take will stand out and I will work on it, and there have been a few times I was glad I had the other takes to borrow from.

[bbrown]

How Many Mistakes Do You Find Acceptable?


16-24. That's about my average, per tune.

[Ty Ford]

"I can't over-emphasize how comfortable it felt after the first take when I heard the sonic quality. But more than that, when I asked him to move a couple of notes from a previous figure, or when he'd do the 'splice' where I'd backed up a beat or two, it took less than a minute most of the time, and there was absolutely no indication that anything had been changed."

I do this for the guys I record here all the time. And, yes, it does take the pressure off. I had to educate each and every one of them. Just telling them to back up a few measures and pick it up seemed alien to them. I've even done that with 4-5 person groups with 16 or so tracks. For groups, sometimes I'll move an entry note so, for example, the bass and guitar hit EXACTLY at the same time.

It's not ALWAYS possible, but very likely it is. I've also stolen a note or two from one moment in a take and pasted it where the same notes were played, but not so well. As long as the playing is consistent, it works. I have had players that can't play the same thing twice (or thrice) and then things can get sticky. I'll ask them to start earlier in the backup and hope to find a better place to do the edit.

I one did an edit from a CD track from a fairly well-know delta blues player. A friend of mine (who's a great player himself) told me about the track and said, "I love this tune but there's a clam in it and it drives me nuts. Can you fix it?"

He said the part was repeated at least one other time. Copy, Paste, Finesse, Done.

Pro Tools can be a very powerful friend.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[always guitar]

I remember sneaking into a jazz club in Phoenix when I was 17. I was seated about 10-15 feet away from Joe Pass playing a solo concert. That close I could hear him under his breath saying things like "**** it", basically regretting a mistake he had just made that was so subtle that no one could hear it. I love him for that.
I am trying to be naked. I would like to find a way to record with 2 microphones, voice and guitar - no compression, no eq, no anything except the sound. I hope I can get there and if I do, I will have to accept many "mistakes", because I am certainly not Joe Pass.

AG

[alohachris]

Aloha AG,

I miss Joe Pass. Only saw him twice - unreal, one-of-a-kind talent & spirit. Thanks for the memories, AG. He was always a "noisy" player, talking to himself, even on his recordings.

Going "naked" has always been my acoustic recording goal too, since I began recording in the 60's up to recently at home with DAW recording.

Clarity, purity, simplicity, balance in terms of capturing the natural sound of the acoustic guitar have always been at the forefront of my gear decisions - especially for solo fingerstyle recordings.

To go "naked" however, to strive for that purity of acoustic tone, has meant putting more focus on the recording space, your room, plus mic placement, even more so than on the gear itself, IME.

I've proven to myself that the "naked" goal can be achieved (on some days anyway, Ha!) by making my own portable, relatively inexpensive Room Treatment that is placed where I need it the most & can be stored when I need the room for other uses.

If you control the space, you can achieve your "naked" goal much more easily than in an un-treated space, if you can at all - debatable. So meter your room, find out the trouble spots & treat accordingly. That will make the biggest qualitative difference to "naked" home acoustic tracks/recordings, beyond the music.

After room treatment, in a "naked" situation, the placement & quality of your mic's is key, IMO. So get a matched pair of great studio condenser mic's & experiment a lot!

It also helps if your signal chain is made up of elements that are ALL of similar quality & that are complementary to each other, geared towards meeting your "naked" goal.

Then the real challenge begins (Ha!): capturing your own "alive" un-distracted musical performances - not that easy to do when the player is also the engineer, IME.

alohachris

[Picking Moose]

This thread reminded me of something than happened to me a few years ago.

I was doing a gig in a Folk Club in Birmingham (UK) and half way through an instrumental (Jesus, joy of man's desires) my brain went totally blank, as if someone had turned the light off inside.
Suddently I didn't know where to put my fingers.. could not remember how to carry on the tune... nothing.
I fumbled for a good long minute (but it felt like 5) moving my fingers here and there trying to find a way back into the tune which I eventually did and completed.
It appeared no one noticed so it wasn't too bad, although inside I was feeling really angry with myself.

Two months passed and I was called again in Birmingham for another gig. Different place.
I played that same piece and all went well.
I succesfully concluded my gig and, while I was putting my stuff away, a guy approached me. He complimented me for the gig and then he went on saying something like...
"I was at the gig you played two months ago here in B'ham... and I noticed that at that time, when you played "Jesus joy", you did some great tricky bits in the middle which you didn't do tonight"!!!
I laughed out loud and left

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Picking Moose

This thread reminded me of something than happened to me a few years ago.

I was doing a gig in a Folk Club in Birmingham (UK) and half way through an instrumental (Jesus, joy of man's desires) my brain went totally blank, as if someone had turned the light off inside.
Suddently I didn't know where to put my fingers.. could not remember how to carry on the tune... nothing.
I fumbled for a good long minute (but it felt like 5) moving my fingers here and there trying to find a way back into the tune which I eventually did and completed.
It appeared no one noticed so it wasn't too bad, although inside I was feeling really angry with myself.

Two months passed and I was called again in Birmingham for another gig. Different place.
I played that same piece and all went well.
I succesfully concluded my gig and, while I was putting my stuff away, a guy approached me. He complimented me for the gig and then he went on saying something like...
"I was at the gig you played two months ago here in B'ham... and I noticed that at that time, when you played "Jesus joy", you did some great tricky bits in the middle which you didn't do tonight"!!!
I laughed out loud and left

Yep, repeat your mistakes and they will think you meant them.

[always guitar]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Going "naked" has always been my acoustic recording goal too, since I began recording in the 60's up to recently at home with DAW recording.

Clarity, purity, simplicity, balance in terms of capturing the natural sound of the acoustic guitar have always been at the forefront of my gear decisions - especially for solo fingerstyle recordings.

To go "naked" however, to strive for that purity of acoustic tone, has meant putting more focus on the recording space, your room, plus mic placement, even more so than on the gear itself, IME.

I've proven to myself that the "naked" goal can be achieved (on some days anyway, Ha!) by making my own portable, relatively inexpensive Room Treatment that is placed where I need it the most & can be stored when I need the room for other uses.

If you control the space, you can achieve your "naked" goal much more easily than in an un-treated space, if you can at all - debatable. So meter your room, find out the trouble spots & treat accordingly. That will make the biggest qualitative difference to "naked" home acoustic tracks/recordings, beyond the music.

After room treatment, in a "naked" situation, the placement & quality of your mic's is key, IMO. So get a matched pair of great studio condenser mic's & experiment a lot!

It also helps if your signal chain is made up of elements that are ALL of similar quality & that are complementary to each other, geared towards meeting your "naked" goal.

Then the real challenge begins (Ha!): capturing your own "alive" un-distracted musical performances - not that easy to do when the player is also the engineer, IME.

alohachris

I saw Joe play 3 times solo. Magnificent!
I am getting there using an SDC and a figure 8 ribbon utilizing MS technique. This is the best I've gotten so far for simultaneous voice/guitar. With proper positioning, it really is a good stereo mic technique.
As we say in Los Angeles - peace out.

AG