National Duolian

[PaintedAxe]

I will be attending a few guitar shows in early 2015 and will be looking for a National Duollan. Looking for advice/tips on what to look for to verify authenticity and original hardware, and what else should I be aware of.

Thanks

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by PaintedAxe

I will be attending a few guitar shows in early 2015 and will be looking for a National Duollan. Looking for advice/tips on what to look for to verify authenticity and original hardware, and what else should I be aware of.

Thanks

Ok, you asked for it...so this is going to be long.

If you're looking for a playable vintage Duolian, the important things to look at are the angle of the neck, the height of the bridge saddle, and the angle from saddle to tailpiece.
In most cases as the neck angle would go out of whack, people would compensate by lowering the bridge saddle to bring the action down, reducing the string angle behind the bridge. The correct string angle from bridge to tailpiece is already very shallow, so any reduction of saddle height usually leads to buzzing.
Assuming the guitar has playable action (can be fretted comfortably all the way down the neck, none of this "it's set up for slide" nonsense), look at it from the side so that you can evaluate the saddle height in relation to the handrest of the cone coverplate. The saddle should be between 1/2 and 2/3 the height of the handrest. The angle from saddle to tailpiece should be somewhere between 3 and 5 degrees (like I said, very shallow). An excess string angle from bridge to saddle (the result of a neck reset with a greater angle than original) will stifle the tone of the cone (and in extreme cases, will cause the cone to collapse).

• If the string height is not comfortably playable, the guitar needs a neck reset.
• If the bridge saddle is lower than half the height of the coverplate handrest, the guitar needs a neck reset.
• If the tailpiece is "understrung" (strings pass under instead of over the tailpiece), the string angle from saddle to tailpiece is too shallow and the guitar needs a neck reset.
• If the saddle height is greater than 1/3 of the height of the handrest, the guitar has had a neck reset and someone overshot the angle.
• If the string angle from saddle to tailpiece is greater than 5 degrees, the guitar has had a neck reset and someone overshot the angle.

In terms of originality of the components, unfortunately you can't be sure without disassembling the guitar, and I'm not sure dealers at a guitar show will be too keen on you removing the strings and pulling out the cone.

The most important is the guitar having its original cone. National Reso-Phonic manufacturers replacement cones of high quality, but they do not sound like the old ones. They sound much better than the imports, or those lifeless things made by Beard (Beard is reputed for making excellent Dobro cones, but their National style cones are pretty atrocious). Cones can develop issues as a result of being deformed by mishandling or excess string tension, specifically along the crimped rim which comprises their base. Some can be repaired, some can not. Unfortunately the only way you can discern old ones from new ones is by having closely examined specimens of each. They are superficially similar, the differences lie in the prominence of the spin lines, and the way the spirals are stamped, and the exact number of stamped spirals. The older cones have much subtler looking spin lines and stamping, but it is hard to tell them apart to an untrained eye. Around the same time that the body style changed from 12-fret to 14-fret, the cones gained extra stamping around their perimeter - short radial "ribs" designed to strengthen the rim. Unfortunately the presence of these is not a sure-fire way to determine that the cone is vintage, since cheap Korean-made cones are patterned after them. The presence of such a cone in a 12-fret guitar is a sign that the cone is not original to the guitar. Cones without these extra "ribs" appeared in some 14-fret slothead Duolians (not common), but by the time the pegheads were changed to solid, they must have used up all the "old style" cones, so the presence of a rib-less cone in a later Duolian indicates that the cone is not original to the guitar.
This may help you discern the differences in cones, unfortunately he photos are not very large: http://www.nationalguitar.com/learn/cone-talk

Although the topic is still debated by some people, original metal-bodied nationals came with a fine felt gasket liner under the cone. This felt was made of a dark green wool material, what is called a "Milton weave" - it is not the same as pool table felt or any of the other stuff I've seen suggested as a substitute. Some people suggest that anything between the cone and the body was added afterwards to cure buzzes, and in some cases this is true - you find all kinds of weird stuff between cones and the ledge they sit on, but this is usually because somewhere along the line, someone yanked out the original felt - either believing that it didn't belong there, or in a futile attempt to bring down the action and postpone an inevitable neck reset. The felt gasket makes a tremendous difference in tone, in my opinion. Every stereotype you hear about steel Nationals (harsh, clangy, banjo-like, no bass, "sounds like a trashcan" etc) is applicable to a Duolian without its gasket. To my ears, the presence of the original gasket ensures a much richer, bass-heavy, and for lack of a better word, "musical" tone.
I have only found one currently-available substitute for the original material, you can even get it in the correct color from these guys: http://www.maplesplendor.ca/felt.htm (a 16" x 12" piece is required, the smaller size isn't large enough). It should be noted that once installed, it takes a while (as long as several weeks) for the material to "bed in" sufficiently. It won't sound very good until it does.

The bridge saddle (and sometimes the wooden "biscuit") which supports it on the cone's apex is usually replaced when a neck reset is performed. This doesn't really affect value, although a new saddle in the original biscuit is preferable to the entire wooden assembly being replaced.

National tailpieces sometimes break along the sharp crease, as with the cones some can be repaired, some can not. National Reso-Phonic manufacturers replacements, but they do not look exactly like the old ones, the stamped out part is less bulbous so they are easy to spot.

The tuners on the 12 fret Duolians were plain, unengraved 3-on-a-strip slothead tuners. The 14 fret Duolians had plain 3-on-a-strip open-gear Klusons.

Inside the guitar, there are wooden supports that support the neck stick which extends from the heel of the neck to the guitar's tailpiece and passes under the cone. Usually shims are added or removed from these during the course of a neck reset, but sometimes they need replacement. This doesn't affect the guitar's value.

Some of the earliest Duolians had fretboards made of some kind of phenolic material (literally compressed paper dyed black) which deteriorated over the years, these are almost always replaced.

The finish on Duolians from the earliest examples until the solid headstock models appeared was Dupont Duco "crystallized" finish which came in a variety of hues and crystal patterns. Each guitar was unique, as the crystal finish was randomly formed by a chemical process. Somewhere around 1936 or early 1937 the crystal Duco finish was replaced with a fake woodgrain finish, dark brown streaked with black in imitation of actual woodgrain. Many old Duolians have been stripped down to bare steel, refinished, or worse - nickel-plated (in the worst cases, chrome plated). Duolians never came with solid colors, sunburst style finishes, or plating.

There isn't much else that can be replaced on a Duolian, they're not like Strats or Les Pauls where you can buy deadly accurate aged replacement parts from two dozen different boutique suppliers. Even National Reso-Phonic's parts, from the cones and tailpieces to the bodies and headstock shapes, aren't a close match to the old Nationals, so they won't fool anyone.

Last but not least, do you know what era Duolian you want? There's more to the differences than simple aesthetics. For one thing, they don't feel the same at all. The neck shapes on the 12-fret Duolians were a big C with a flat radius fingerboard, the transitional 12-fret Duolians (1933-early '34) with the rolled f-holes got radiused fretboards (well...some did, some didn't), the early 14-fret Duolians (which appeared when National moved from California to Chicago) with slotted headstocks got V necks with radiused fretboards (well...some flat ones turn up sometimes), the solid headstock Duolians got even fatter V necks with radiused fingerboards.
Most importantly, they don't sound the same at all! Don't let anyone tell you that 14-fretters sound "smaller" or "thinner"...the loudest, most booming Duolians I have heard have consistently been those woodgrain solid headstock models.

[blue]

Are you looking for a great player, or a collector's piece? It's just like early Fenders, only probably a lot less criminal intent and forgery. But most folks aren't able to negotiate those waters safely. Printing the above post and taking it with you won't insure you don't get taken.

If you just want a great playing one, and don't worry about original cones, etc. by all means go to a show and find one. Just don't over pay. Cones are fragile, and you're talking about an 80 year old guitar. Walking away from a great looking and playing guitar because it doesn't have original cones means you're walking away from a great looking and playing guitar. And there are a lot more of them than all original ones.

If you're on a mission for a collector's piece, you have no choice of course, and you will become the custodian of very special piece of history. Very cool.

If you want a great guitar to play, you do have a choice. An original body with a new neck and cone can be the best guitar you'll ever own. And National had a history of making some bad decisions that left a lot of single cone guitars especially from the 30's destined to need new necks.

If you want to know exactly what you are getting, and don't mind paying for the security of that knowledge, buy from someone like Mark Schoenberger. He has a 12 and a 14 fret duolian right now. His prices are actually pretty fair considering who you are buying from, and the assessment your guitar would be getting. http://nationalguitarrepair.com/4sale.shtml

[Cone Head]

That's some well-intentioned fear-mongering there.

Most dealers won't stake their reputations on "taking" an unsuspecting buyer on a guitar that, even in pristine original condition, is only going to fetch $3.5K.
Besides, no one is out there forging vintage Nationals the way they do with pre-CBS fenders or '58 Les Pauls. The demand is simply too low, there's no shortage since National made more Duolians than any other model, and the profit margin is too minuscule to warrant subterfuge.

Cones not that fragile, as the thousands of happily resonating vintage cones out there will attest to. Having played many Nationals with both original cones and replacement cones (and in a few instances, the same guitar with different cones), I feel pretty strongly that if you're going to take the time to look, it is well worth your time to seek out an example with a healthy original cone. New NRP cones don't sound bad at all, they just don't sound anything like the old ones, and the old ones are much more to my liking.

Concerning the originality of the rest of the guitar...that depends on how much you want to spend and what your expectations are. There are plenty of great playing and sounding Nationals that don't have their original paint out there. I have had two Duolians which had been stripped of their paint in the past, the last of the two only cost $1000 and it was a great sounding/playing one.
Replaced necks...one of my Nationals is a '36 Style O with a new neck installed by Marc Schoenberger. I love it, and luckily it basically cost me the price of the neck and installation, but if I was going to sell it I'd probably get about as much as what a used Delphi goes for, in spite of it being a vastly superior sounding instrument. But the bottom line is that the original necks on my two other National guitars FEEL a whole lot more comfortable to me. I got the Style O body pretty much for free, I am happy that it's a playable guitar now, but if I were shopping for a National I wouldn't deliberately seek out such a Frankenstein unless I was on a restricted budget. In which case, it definitely sounds better than any NRP I've played, so I'm not knocking it.

As with cones, there are plenty of viable necks out there. The only ones that really needed widespread replacement were the Bakelite necks National experimented with in 1930 (on Triolians), and that's only because until very recently no one knew how to straighten them properly. The rest of them suffered the same fate as any other company's necks: some warped, some didn't. Nothing that can't be corrected with carbon fiber rods under the fretboard, or other regular means of neck straightening.

If what you want is an original example, there is no shortage of them out there which have had all their issues addressed, in spite of the sorry basket cases that turn up with alarming frequency on ebay. Even at the highest prices Duolians go for (especially considering what extremes the vintage guitar market is capable of) it is hard to think of them as "collector's pieces" regardless of the condition - they're not pre-war Martins. If you're an informed buyer and aren't in a hurry, you'll find that there are many good choices out there, regardless of what you're willing to spend and what you're looking for.

[blue]

Yes thousands of happy surviving cones! How many cones were produced?

It's kind of confusing. Your post suggests you love and respect them, but you dismiss them as not being "collector's pieces" regardless of condition.

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by blue

It's kind of confusing. Your post suggests you love and respect them, but you dismiss them as not being "collector's pieces" regardless of condition.

Nothing to be confused about. Considering that a pristine Duolian costs only about 50% more than the equivalent modern NRP model, or 50% more than a Duolian with replaced parts, it seems ridiculous to talk about them as if they were priced like a pre-war D-28 and that one should "settle" for an example that has been messed with. A Duolian isn't going to make anyone spend their children's college fund money, so if what the OP wants an original one, the increase in price should not be enough to deter him.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Cone Head

Nothing to be confused about. Considering that a pristine Duolian costs only about 50% more than the equivalent modern NRP model, or 50% more than a Duolian with replaced parts, it seems ridiculous to talk about them as if they were priced like a pre-war D-28 and that one should "settle" for an example that has been messed with. A Duolian isn't going to make anyone spend their children's college fund money, so if what the OP wants an original one, the increase in price should not be enough to deter him.

You're injecting your own preconceptions into the discussion. Collectibility has nothing to do with price. People collect pokemon dolls... If you want to a guitar you can take out without worrying about leaving on stage while you run to the john, 50% price difference is significant when it's a $1000.

Asking how to authenticate original hardware is not the same as "I want all original parts." My answer included both an all original guitar, and one with replaced, and even modern parts. And I in no way insulted going all original. In fact I believe I said "Very Cool".

The fact that I gave an alternative to your answer doesn't mean you have to tear my answer apart.

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by blue

You're injecting your own preconceptions into the discussion.

Wait, are you saying that you're not "injecting your own preconceptions" here?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are extrapolating from the opinion you put forth in this thread:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=365088

The OP asked what to look for to verify authenticity and original hardware and you start by trying to steer him towards "bargain" instruments with replaced necks and relegating original models to the "collector's piece/piece of history" category, and go on to suggest that a large portion of vintage Nationals "need" to have their necks replaced, which is pure fantasy.
No, it's not "just like early Fenders" - neither in terms of price, nor in terms of supply/demand, nor in terms of rate of fraudulence.

Feel free to disagree, it's a discussion forum. No need to get offended because we don't see things the same way.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Cone Head

Wait, are you saying that you're not "injecting your own preconceptions" here?

That was a tongue in cheek piece. The very title, declares that it is not be taken seriously and is a parody.

And no, my words here are NOT an extension of that post at all. I supported owning an all original duolian as being very cool. I DO believe it is worthy of being called a collection piece. I DO believe that you become the custodian of something very special if you buy an all original.

In fact I pointed the OP in a very safe direction to get an all original when I pointed him in Marc's direction.

I don't get your energy here. I didn't challenge anything you said. I pointed the guy in a safe direction, and presented an alternative.

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by blue

That was a tongue in cheek piece. The very title, declares that it is not be taken seriously and is a parody.

And no, my words here are NOT an extension of that post at all.

Fair enough, sorry I even brought it up.


I have never seen a thread where someone asks about what to look for when buying (for instance) a 30s L-00 and have someone direct him towards a guitar with a replaced top or a replaced neck.
I guess that if the OP had not specified "what to look for to verify authenticity and original hardware" we wouldn't be disagreeing about anything.

It is entirely possible that I mistakenly read a dismissiveness to your "piece of history" comment which wasn't there, in which case, we probably agree more than we disagree.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Cone Head

Fair enough, sorry I even brought it up.


I have never seen a thread where someone asks about what to look for when buying (for instance) a 30s L-00 and have someone direct him towards a guitar with a replaced top or a replaced neck.
I guess that if the OP had not specified "what to look for to verify authenticity and original hardware" we wouldn't be disagreeing about anything.

Wood guitars are related to furniture, and Resos are related to machines. There are so many components that can be swapped out without skipping a beat. Both period correct and modern parts. Coverplates, cones, screws, mushrooms, etc. It's not quite the same discussion IMO as a flattop that has been steamed open and rebuilt.

And there are legitimate playability advantages to a modern neck, such as much more predictable intonation and truss rods. It's the reason my only original National is a squareneck. Since I do consider them important pieces, I wouldn't feel comfortable putting more than 12s on an original. And I don't want to live with that.

Without knowing the background of the OP I felt it necessary to bring up the issue of Playability vs. collectibility (which the computer keeps telling me I'm misspelling but I don't care enough to look up how it's spelled).

[blue]

Clicked on your band link. I recognize you from a Surf Guitar board years ago. Don't worry, I won't engage with you again.

Edited to add. I truly love the musical direction you're taking. I've headed back into early jazz and rag. No sarcasm here. Good stuff.

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by blue

Wood guitars are related to furniture, and Resos are related to machines. There are so many components that can be swapped out without skipping a beat.

I can't agree entirely. You're correct about many of those items, but the issue is replaced by who, and how? If you send your vintage National to NRP for a neck reset, they'll install it at that same 5 degree angle that they install new necks. It dramatically changes the sound of a guitar (towards the tone of a modern National), as does a modern cone. So yes, components can be swapped, but whether or not a beat is to be skipped depends entirely on the knowledge and skill of the person doing the work.

Originally Posted by blue

And there are legitimate playability advantages to a modern neck, such as much more predictable intonation and truss rods. It's the reason my only original National is a squareneck. Since I do consider them important pieces, I wouldn't feel comfortable putting more than 12s on an original. And I don't want to live with that.

The nice thing about the original cones, is that you don't need to.
On my two old Triolians (both of which have perfectly good intonation and low action) I use 12s for standard tuning and open G, and 13s for open D. They don't get any louder with bigger strings, just harder to fret and the sustain actually decreases because the cones don't like being clamped down THAT hard. I never got the concept of putting squareneck sized string gauges on roundneck guitars, it just isn't necessary.

Originally Posted by blue

Without knowing the background of the OP I felt it necessary to bring up the issue of Playability vs. collectibility (which the computer keeps telling me I'm misspelling but I don't care enough to look up how it's spelled).

Collectability.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Maybe I am wrong in my assumption that, on account of how the OP phrased their question, they're looking for a guitar that hasn't been tampered with too much.
If not, I would argue that it is actually riskier buying a National that is NOt original, because there simply aren't that many people who know how to work on them properly. Before NRP was around, people used to send them to Dobro for neck resets, and they'd put a hole through the back and put a great big honkin' screw through there. I can go on and on about some of the "pro" repairs I've seen.

[PaintedAxe]

1st ... Thanks to all who have contributed. I appreciate all the input.

2nd ... My goal is to find a playable Duolian that I can insert into my regular rotation of guitars that I play. The caveats are that I have short stubby fingers so neck circumference can be an issue. I don't not plan to play slide on it.

Are show dealers likely to know if cone has been replaced? Does a guitar that needs its neck reset mean walk away? Or, the dealers price needs to be knocked down and by how much?

3rd .. I am most interested in a Duolian from early 30s w/ diamond shape holes (no ribs), f holes. If lucky enought find one, what should headstock look like and what about "National" logo?

Thanks again

Mike

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by PaintedAxe

The caveats are that I have short stubby fingers so neck circumference can be an issue. I don't not plan to play slide on it.

Personally I prefer the later V necks with radiused fingerboards for standard tuning/non-slide playing playing and the older C necks with flat radius fingerboards for slide. However this is subjective and you should try both types. Both types are big, by modern standards, but oddly enough not as bulky as modern NRP necks. There is a tiny degree of variance among the old ones, but they are consistent in terms of shape.

Originally Posted by PaintedAxe

Are show dealers likely to know if cone has been replaced?

Yes. I should also point out that the latest crop of NRP cones can be distinguished by two shield logos stamped in them, you can often spy those through the cover sieve holes.

Originally Posted by PaintedAxe

Does a guitar that needs its neck reset mean walk away? Or, the dealers price needs to be knocked down and by how much?

Not necessarily. A neck reset on a National is less costly than a reset involving a traditional neck joint, the most reputable National repairman in the USA only charges around $300 or $350 for a neck reset + setup, so you can factor that into the price, but I would imagine that any dealer selling a Duolian in need of a neck reset will have already taken that into consideration. However, you would not be able to accurately assess how the guitar plays and sounds, so such a purchase would be something of a leap of faith.

Originally Posted by PaintedAxe

I am most interested in a Duolian from early 30s w/ diamond shape holes (no ribs), f holes. If lucky enought find one, what should headstock look like and what about "National" logo?

The early 30s Duolians had plain mahogany slotted headstocks with no logo, they just had "NATIONAL Duolian" stamped into the front headstock. The 14-fret Duolians that followed had a lightly sunbursted finish on the headstock and a decal that looked like this:
http://www.folkwaymusic.com/images/i...dstocklogo.jpg
These often flake off or get scratched off.
The choice of an early 30s model would depend on whether or not you feel comfortable with a flat radius fretboard, otherwise you might want to consider a Duolian that has had its fretboard replaced with a modern radiused board if you're set on an early 30s model, or look specifically for a '33-'34 with rolled f-holes and a radiused fretboard, although these would have the ribbed coverplate and tend to command somewhat higher prices.
The "no ribs" coverplate appears on Duolians up until aprproximately 1932, then reappears (in a heavier, more domed format with a rolled-for-reinforcement lip to the central hole under the handrest) on 14-fret models. Duolians all had f-holes and sieve holes throughout their four basic incarnations.