The sound of Sobell guitars

[Sticky_fingers]

There have been discussions about Sobell guitars before. Some of the best guitars ever built have been said. What I recently heard, was a person speaking of the Sobell guitars as a part of the "european sound", along with Lowden and McIlroy etc. Ive never played a Sobell though, but always thought of them as a bit more towards the "american sound", if we allow ourselves to use these generalisations. Ive been a Martin Simpson fan for years, and heard him live, but with the PRS guitar. I never linked the Sobells with that airy personality that the Lowdens have, but since they are come from the british isles, and have a history that goes back to the early seventies, I think why not. Im sure they are truly unique in their own way, but where do you who have played them say they are in terms of tone? European, american or completely unique?

[billgennaro]

I have only played one but it was different than any other guitar I've ever played. Completely unique. I didn't play it long enough to give you any specifics that I can remember, I just remember it not suiting my style. Of course, this was only one guitar. Mike, at Luthier's Collection, told me it was a good example of his work. He also said you will either love them or not like them much at all. I do remember it being a rather powerful instrument. It was the tone that didn't grab my personal taste.

Hopefully, someone with more experience will chime in here.

[Larry Pattis]

Lowden and Sobell guitars have nothing in common, tonally, nor in the details of their construction.

Sobell is a thick, defined sound, and it takes (IMO) a very-firm right-hand to bring out the best in Stefan's instruments. Sobell has a very tightly radiused top and back, more than what any other builder uses...that I know of, anyway.

I like Martin Simpson best when he has the Sobell in his hands (but he's great, regardless)...which BTW, usually has a .015 and a .018 on the treble string, e & b. respectively No kidding. Talk about a thick and massive sound.

[Yrksman]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Lowden and Sobell guitars have nothing in common, tonally, nor in the details of their construction.

Sobell is a thick, defined sound, and it takes (IMO) a very-firm right-hand to bring out the best in Stefan's instruments. Sobell has a very tightly radiused top and back, more than what any other builder uses...that I know of, anyway.

I like Martin Simpson best when he has the Sobell in his hands (but he's great, regardless)...which BTW, usually has a .015 and a .018 on the treble string, e & b. respectively No kidding. Talk about a thick and massive sound.

And Stefan is most definitely NOT looking for an American sound. He would probably be quite offended at the suggestion.

[AZ Slacker]

I ordered my Sobell (old growth Brazilian and European spruce) in early 2000 and received it in 2001 after meeting Martin Simpson and spending several weeks with him.

My Sobell, Model 1, was amazing. The sustain and overtones were to die for. I think the guitar excelled playing Martin's arrangements and was quite versatile. Not my choice for playing the blues. It had a superb setup and I too played a .015 on the high E dropped to D as Martin did.

I sold it after 10 years in like new condition. I talked with Stefan to ask what would happen if the guitar ever needed work. He told me no one in the USA does work on his guitars (at the time) and that anything like a neck reset (he told me the neck is permanently attached to the body) or other major work, would require the guitar to be sent back to England. The VAT tax and customs there are a nightmare, so I decided to sell it before it needed any work.

He and Nigel Forster (former Sobell apprentice) build beautiful guitars with some of the most pure, wonderful sounds I've ever heard from wood. Not Martin dread sound for sure, but more balanced across all the strings. It's a great guitar, just wish he built them here or had an authorized luthier here.

[Yrksman]

Returning a guitar to the UK for repairs would not attract VAT or customs duties. The only tax involved would be VAT (sales tax) added to the cost of the repair (currently 20%).

[BOOSE]

I've never played a Sobell, but I know to some they are the "holy grail" sonically. I do have and have played quite a few Lowdens, owned a Mcilroy A25 for a short time, and I also own and have owned a few Fylde guitars, What I don't get is this European or American sound, surely what should be said is that a Lowden sounds like a Lowden a Fylde sounds like a Fylde, etc etc. You could argue that a Martin has a European sound since they are the collaboration of a German trained by an Austrian, but know one would say that, they should say it sounds like a Martin, I think its more the case that from the turn of the last century to the early 1970's that most steel strung guitars you heard on record were American, for me it is more a design issue rather than sound, Martin gave the world the first radically designed steel strung acoustic and set the bench mark for all that followed, other builders tinkered around with their own ideas and we now have the greatest array of builders and designs that your ever going to see, but all those builders from the pioneers that are Martin to the modern builders like Lowden made guitars for making music on! How many of us could tell what country a guitar came from in a blind fold test? Yeah I know a few could tell what brand a guitar was in a blindfold test and that would obviously give it away but you get the drift. I love the sound of Lowdens and Fyldes, just seems to suit me, but I like them because of the sound they make, not where they were made.

[craigj]

Never played one myself, but I like what Darrell Scott gets out of his. I think it's a Martin Simpson model. Lots of good YouTube videos out there with him and Tim O'Brien.

[Sticky_fingers]

I agree that the "european vs american" sound is a bit misleading in terms of description, with the roots of Martin actually being european. With that being said, if Lowden and Martin is something of a reference point sonically to what is being talked about as european vs american sound, it at least provides a little bit of guidance. But whatever really, some builders strive to replicate the "golden era" of Martins, while so many others dedicate their workmanship into making something completely of their own, and that definitely seems to be the case with Sobell.

Larry, interesting fact about MS's string gauge Bigger is better some might say. And Im having trouble playing fingerstyle with 013 on the top string in standard tuning... I could read all day about what some guitar players have done and incorporated to get their voice through the instrument, and MS is an interesting player indeed. Im no slide player, but I once had the opportunity to try one of his signature slides. MASSIVE!

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

I like Martin Simpson best when he has the Sobell in his hands (but he's great, regardless)...which BTW, usually has a .015 and a .018 on the treble string, e & b. respectively No kidding. Talk about a thick and massive sound.

Indeed, but it should be noted that they are never actually tuned up to e and b .... d and a being the norm.

[Sticky_fingers]

Originally Posted by craigj

Never played one myself, but I like what Darrell Scott gets out of his. I think it's a Martin Simpson model. Lots of good YouTube videos out there with him and Tim O'Brien.

Nice! Looked it up. Ive seen and heard him before on youtube, but with an all loa Taylor dreadnought I believe

[Sticky_fingers]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Indeed, but it should be noted that they are never actually tuned up to e and b .... d and a being the norm.

Is that so? Martin has a reportoire that includes a lot of songs in drop D tuning, but maybe he uses other gauges for these tunes?

[kirtley2013]

I've played 6 sobell guitars, they are very different to other guitars, his construction technique is uncomparable to any other maker but they sound incredible, suited mostly for fingerstyle and really sing with drop tunings, I've never heard a guitar take open C better, I don't live far from Stefan in Newcastle, never met him although the strange thing is that makers around this area all have their instruments somewhat linked to Stefans guitars, another instrument maker is (the recently retired) Terry Docherty, his guitars are more stripped down than Stefans but their are clear links and mine sounds amazing, the person who owned the 6 sobells played it and was very impressed.
Stefan uses the best materials he can possibly get his hands on (European Spruce, Brazilian rosewood, cocobolo, tazmanian blackwood, curly maple etc) all aged for many many years before being used and all built out in the country in his amazing workshop, Terry used East indian rosewood, Adirondack spruce etc but his construction of the guitars are incredible, however his guitars new are also about 1/3 of the price of Stefan's

The Sobells I played didn't really suit me at the time although if they suit you then you cannot beat them, they are amazing

[AZ Slacker]

Originally Posted by Yrksman

Returning a guitar to the UK for repairs would not attract VAT or customs duties. The only tax involved would be VAT (sales tax) added to the cost of the repair (currently 20%).

I had a Forster guitar that I had to return to England for repairs; same style neck permanently attached to the body of the guitar as the Sobell, and it needed a reset, so back it went. My guitar got hung up in customs for many months while someone decided whether or not to charge me taxes on a new instrument, even though it was previously purchased and being returned for repairs under warranty. There was no charge for the repairs, and I'm guessing someone wanted to get some tax money some way.

I don't ever want to go through that again. Still, let me say again, the sound of the Sobell (and the Forster) guitars are amazing, and as noted earlier, they excel in open tunings. They just ring forever.

[Tim Porter]

I'm a dyed in the wool Sobell nut. I have 3 of his guitars and an Octave Mandolin. The guitars are his Model 0E (fairly small body, 12 fret cutaway), Model 1 (14 fret cutaway), and Martin Simpson (14 fret non-cutaway). The MS model is wenge and european spruce and the other two guitars are brazilian and european spruce. Sobells are, to me, the anti-Martin. That sounds rude, though it's certainly not meant to be.

For a guy like me with his roots totally in the Martin sound, Sobells represent the other end of the sonic spectrum (whether you call them european, American, whatever). Stefan definitely marches to his own drummer and wanted to avoid the woofiness and lack of clarity in the bass that he hears in a typical dreadnought. Now, I have Martin dreadnoughts, and many Martin and boutique OMs (including a 1930 Martin OM-28). I love them all. I didn't go looking for other tonalities in guitars until I got to know Martin Simpson's music and met Stefan when he visit Paul at Dream Guitars when he was still in New Jersey. I loved the Sobell's projection and clarity in contrast to what I hear in the Martin tone--it's a really cool addition to the tonal palette, IMHO. A Sobell can absolutely fill a room--every note is crystal clear and just as loud as it needs to be, i.e., the tonal balance is amazing.

I think there's an argument to be made that even Stefan might consider his sound to be European (or at least NOT American). The reason I say this is that in 2006 Stefan introduced an OM-sized model he chose to call the "New World" model. Here are the words from his website:

"In 2006 I designed and built a new guitar inspired by the classic small US guitars of the 20s and 30s, in particular one I heard played many years ago by Stefan Grossman.

Although built in factories, these guitars were basically hand made by skilled craftsmen using the high quality materials then readily available. The best were outstanding instruments, built mostly with Brazilian rosewood back and sides and Adirondack spruce soundboards.
My new guitar was a little over 000 size with a 25.3″ scale and more lightly built than both the Martin Simpson Signature Model and Model 1. I call it my New World Model in recognition of its American inspiration.

The New World model offers excellent playability and accessibility; different from the Martin Simpson model sound but every bit as good in its own way. It is admired by all who play it, and at the time of writing is my most popular guitar."

So after years of experience so far with my Sobells, I would say that perhaps yes, you could label Sobells "European". I haven't played enough Lowdens, Fyldes, et al., however, to know if they really fall into the Sobell tonal envelope or if they're just different from Martins, if that makes sense. I think ultimately that Sobells have a unique sound, unlike any others made anywhere.

Here are a couple factoids I've picked up, Sobell-wise:

Martin Simpson did indeed use a 15 for his 1st string and I never saw him tune that guitar to concert pitch. I did see him bring or borrow a second guitar that would be tuned to dropped D on a couple occasions. He could certainly have done it, but I never picked that up. According to Martin, he did it for the purpose of adding tension to the first string for playing slide.

Most Sobells have a slightly longer scale, which helps enormously in using those low C and D tunings.

George Youngblood is pretty much the go-to guy on the East coast for Sobell setups, repairs, etc. He's reachable at acousticmusic.org, via Brian Wolfe.

No commercial interest, btw, just a love for the instruments.

I totally agree with my old college friend, Larry Pattis, that they need a strong right hand technique. This may sound provocative, but they are so revealing of your technique that it's fair to say they don't suffer fools. : )

Here's Martin Simpson playing the wenge MS model that I bought:



HTH, Tim