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  #1  
Old 12-12-2014, 03:05 PM
zrm zrm is offline
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Default Any bluegrassers on here that can give some advice?

up and coming BG'r here.

i'm going to 2 local jams and the song choices are just all over the place.

each week i'm a little more able to anticipate the chord changes. i watch the other guitarists and can usually make the appropriate change.

my question is this:
how in the heck can some of those people know so many dang songs?
especially when a bunch/most have A and B parts with different chord progressions.

thanks!
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  #2  
Old 12-12-2014, 03:36 PM
bluesguy63 bluesguy63 is offline
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FWIW...my experience is yes...they know a lot of songs. A capo will be your best friend.
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Old 12-12-2014, 04:55 PM
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Toby Walker Toby Walker is offline
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This may sound like common sense but it's really a matter of time and experience. Many of them have probably been going to jams and playing Bluegrass for many, many years.

The other thing is that many of the songs have common chord changes. If it weren't for the melody it would be impossible to distinguish one from the other. This ironically makes it easier to recognize.

Just learn one song a day... which is plenty... and keep going to the jams. Over time folks will be wondering how YOU actually know so many songs.
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Old 12-12-2014, 08:54 PM
zrm zrm is offline
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thanks for the responses guys.

learning one per week is about all i can do.....i need to play and listen to it about 2.7 million times before it perpetrates this concrete melon of mine....
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:04 PM
Slinky Slinky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrm View Post
thanks for the responses guys.

learning one per week is about all i can do.....i need to play and listen to it about 2.7 million times before it perpetrates this concrete melon of mine....
This is how I have been doing it. You are on the right track, keep it up and good luck!
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Old 12-13-2014, 12:18 AM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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It is actually pretty simple; most bluegrass songs are in G (or more accurately, played out of G). Bluegrass guitarists tend to play out of G. If the song is in A, you capo at 2 and use all the G stuff you know. Key of Bb, no problem, capo at 3 and play G stuff. Key of C, capo at 5. All your chord shapes, your runs, and your licks remain the same.

Banjo players do the same thing. I am principally a mandolinist; we actually have to learn to play in keys besides G, but the mandolin is tuned in 5ths, which makes transposing relatively easy.

The above advice pertains to bluegrass songs. Fiddle tunes are another matter. Still, most popular tunes are in A, D or G. There are some oddball tunes, but most of the common ones are in relatively simple keys with predicable progressions.

The guys at the two local jams I frequent have been playing together for years. They are monster musicians, but they have years, or decades of experience. You won't learn it all in a night, or even a year.
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Old 12-13-2014, 06:57 AM
Bingoccc Bingoccc is offline
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When I broke down and started thinking of chords by numbers (e.g. I, IV, V), and learning the chords for every common key in a genre, a whole lot of tunes suddenly started looking an awful lot alike. It still surprises me. It may be worth your time to try it for awhile. Songs are much easier for me to remember that way.
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Old 12-13-2014, 09:22 AM
Cibby Cibby is offline
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I play a lot of Carter style which once you get the basics down opens a lot of songs. I started by getting a book of 25 standard blue grass songs like Blackberry Blossom, Cherokee Shuffle ect. Then moved on to learning Carter style songs. You be amazed once you get a couple songs down how easy the others are to learn. I've been going to jams for over 5 years you'll learn a lot from other players to.
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Old 12-13-2014, 09:43 AM
Vognell Vognell is offline
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Work on a bunch of songs, don't worry about mastery. Get used to hearing the chord changes. Bluegrass generally doesn't get into a whole lot of "jazz" chords, so once you get an ear for the changes (which you develop by playing the changes, A LOT), you'll be able to follow along. Do yourself a favor and analyze the progressions and chord relationships.

As far ask picking goes, learn the more common bluegrass scales (G, C, D, A, Em, Am) for the first two or three positions. Learn the arpeggios for the common chords within that scale. Learn the basics of a couple of tunes, then see if you can improvise a little based off your scales and arpeggio patterns. Takes time, but you'll get there.
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2014, 09:56 AM
zrm zrm is offline
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thanks for all of the encouragement!

i'm scratching the surface of so much of what you guys are saying.

i can def hear where some changes are going to come. often i can tell which chord we're going to even w/o having played through it yet.

i totally get the time and experience concept.
i've been mountain biking almost 25 years. somehow i've developed a way to map a trail in my head the first 1-3xs i ride it. after the 4th or 5th time i can draw a map with a description of where the tricky spots are, etc.
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2014, 10:07 AM
zrm zrm is offline
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here's an example of what i struggle with and what i'm most in awe of.

take a song like Red Haired Boy - its a pretty standard BG song.

here's the chord progression. the A and B parts are played twice each before starting over (just being clear for those not into BG):

Part A:
G/G/G/C
G/G/F/F
G/G/G/C
G/G/D/G

Part B:
F/F/F/C
G/G/F/F
G/G/G/C
G/G/D/G

simple enough, sub an F for a G at the start of part B - right?

My question is this:
if you havent played it a million times and don't have tab in front of you and are presented with it for the 1st/2nd/3rd time, are you mapping it in your head through a chorus or 2 and then nailing it? or is everyone kind of struggling too?
have you guys developed the mind map skills that i have when riding a trail?

honestly, i can't keep up with it on the fly....even if i end up identifying the chords then watching the other players and making my changes as fast as i can.


i hope i'm explaining myself in a way that makes sense.....
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Old 12-13-2014, 11:08 AM
Vognell Vognell is offline
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Something like the "mind map", I guess. The more you play the changes, the easier it is to hear them and anticipate them. The brain builds and reinforces the neural pathways associated with whatever you're trying to do, and repetition strengthens the pathways and connections that help you process that action. An important aspect of cognition is the predictive power of the brain. We "anticipate" outcomes based on prior experiences so that we can react quicker. In a sense, it's like building muscle by exercising.

I starting to think that the concept of "muscle confusion", often hyped by exercise gurus such as Tony Horton, is applicable to learning music, which is, in a sense, exercise for the brain. "Muscle confusion" is base on the principle that, if you perform a specific exercise over and over, to the exclusion of other exercises, the muscle (and brain) become highly efficient at performing that one type of movement. In essence, you're mastering one skill or pathway, but leaving others undeveloped. If you mix up exercises, the body (and brain) have to continuously adapt, and in theory, promotes more even development in strength, muscle building, and motion.

In the past, I used to concentrate on one tune at a time, spending an inordinate amount of time trying to "perfect" a tune (though when I listen to my recordings, I realize perfect is a long way away). I only learned how to do one specific thing, and was usually lost at a jam session unless someone played one of the handful of tune that I knew. I eventually realized that the folks that were the most comfortable at the sessions practiced a handful of tunes simultaneously without working to master them one-at-a-time. It occurs to me now that this is probably the best way to improve the predictive power of the brain, by "confusing" it with multiple patterns in a short period of time. I think this makes your brain work harder on finding the commonalities and differences in multiple progressions, strengthening the analytical and predictive aspects of cognition instead of the muscle memory that is developed by rote memorization.

It's just a thought, and I may, as I often am, be full of ****, so take it for what it's worth.
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2014, 12:05 PM
posternutbag posternutbag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrm View Post
here's an example of what i struggle with and what i'm most in awe of.

take a song like Red Haired Boy - its a pretty standard BG song.

here's the chord progression. the A and B parts are played twice each before starting over (just being clear for those not into BG):

Part A:
G/G/G/C
G/G/F/F
G/G/G/C
G/G/D/G

Part B:
F/F/F/C
G/G/F/F
G/G/G/C
G/G/D/G

simple enough, sub an F for a G at the start of part B - right?

My question is this:
if you havent played it a million times and don't have tab in front of you and are presented with it for the 1st/2nd/3rd time, are you mapping it in your head through a chorus or 2 and then nailing it? or is everyone kind of struggling too?
have you guys developed the mind map skills that i have when riding a trail?

honestly, i can't keep up with it on the fly....even if i end up identifying the chords then watching the other players and making my changes as fast as i can.


i hope i'm explaining myself in a way that makes sense.....
A bit of both, I should expect. There are definitely musicians out there who could listen to a tune a couple of times and then play right along. Most people at jams can't. Most people would struggle with a tune like "Red Headed Boy" if they did not already know it.

My experience is that relative to tunes, songs are far more prevalent at jams for this very reason. Most musicians can pick up the chords to songs like "Nine Pound Hammer" or "Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms" fairly quickly. Picking up the chords to a tune like "Blackberry Blossom" (where the chord change every half measure in the A section) is harder.

The tunes I hear most at my jams are tunes like "Fire On The Mountain" and "Jerusalem Ridge." Sure "Fire" is wicked fast, but it has a really basic chord progression.

I have made this recommendation many times, but I will make it again. "Flatpicking Essentials" vol 1-3 will do wonders for your flatpicking and your overall musicianship. These books go way beyond being simple tune books. It is an entire system that teaches a guitarist to play lead and accompaniment on vocal songs and tunes. Simply a great system, and if you follow the method and take the time to work through all of the examples, by the time you finish book 3 you will be a formidable flatpicker.
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2014, 12:06 PM
zrm zrm is offline
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Vognell - i agree all the way down the line with you and have observed the same things across a number of different activities.

there's actually some science to support the notion of randomized practice being superior to controlled practice in skill acquisition - though controlled, repetitive practice certainly has its place. i'm too lazy to post articles but it was something we spent a good bit of time in my Motor Learning and Skill Acquisition classes too many years ago as an Exercise Sports Science major.

i'm guessing that as i improve and get more time under my belt, i'll be able to 'map' the songs faster and with better retention in the same way experts in any field are able to do more with less.

great conversation topic......
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  #15  
Old 12-13-2014, 12:09 PM
zrm zrm is offline
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poster - great insights. its good to hear that others likely struggle and that i'm not 'musically challenged'
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