Experience with Bose L1 and QSC K12?

[mike o]

I love these open, airy discussions.. Good for us, their are plenty of systems to choose from. No one system will work for everyone or in every situation. Playing to a noisy room is a challenge for every system made. Either the audience is enjoying a good conversation or they are not interested in your show. Either way you do not what to get into a sound war with them. You turn up, they talk louder. You turn up too many times and they complain and leave. Not good. Folks who are interested in the music will sit close enough to enjoy the music. For most gig's, a Bose system with 2 b1's should have enough volume and clarity. If you're looking for chest thumping DB's, Bose is not the system for you.

Being you already own a Bose system, work with speaker placement. As I mention before, I enjoy the system to our side. We can hear plenty well and have a good understanding of what the audience is hearing.. I really don't care for any speakers aimed at my ears or mics. Good luck.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by knuckle

Played thought a bose L1 classic the other night. Was going to bring my K12's and K10 monitors but got lazy.

That's the last time I'll play through one of those tinny things.

I don't know if the eq was not setup right but all the thing did was pierce my ears and feedback for an hour.

Here's a hint Bose. Small speakers = trebly sound. I know everyone is going to hate me for saying that. I did own a L1M2 and thought it was ok except for some places where I just could not position it right.

Soloamp was tinny too, no volume. The best thing I ever did was buy those K12's.

So, I'm not bashing Bose fans, this is just my personal experience. Most gigs, I have no control over the sound till we start getting bigger stuff. But from now on when they offer for me to bring my own stuff I am.

I have heard complaints from folks who "tried out" a Bose that someone else set up for them. The Bose approach definitely takes some getting used to. I was using in-ears when I switched to the Bose and it took a while to get used to hearing myself from behind. It also took a while for me to find the right mic and I've been through a lot of different preamps, pickups, etc.

To my ears, vocals sound wonderful and natural through a Bose. The guitar sound can be challenging. I think that something about the technology that allows such a small system to fill such a big space does something a bit unnatural to the sound of an acoustic guitar. I always prefer my guitar through a bigger speaker but with some tweaking, I have a sound I'm very happy with and I can fill a city block with music with a system that fits in the trunk of a Toyota Camry!

I would offer this: if you care about how you sound, you'll sound good through a Bose L1. Why wouldn't you? The tools are there. You may prefer the sound of one system to another but if you know how to make yourself sound good through a "conventional" sound system and you get used to hearing yourself from behind you, you'll make yourself sound good through a Bose.

Frankly, most folks have no idea how they sound. I didn't. I had a big set of speakers on sticks and heard myself through in-ears. Once I started hearing EXACTLY what the audience was hearing, every night at every show, I couldn't help but to strive to improve every aspect of my live sound. It's cost me a lot of time and money but I have learned so much. I learned what mic(s) fit my voice, I improved my singing technique, I'm constantly moving songs to keys that feel better and sound better. I learned how to use parametric EQ to shape the tone of my guitars. I added a Porchboard for a nice low end. And the list goes on.

I now sing through either a Neumann KMS105 or an Audix OM-5 depending on the venue/situation and I run my guitar and ukulele into an Avalon U5 and my Porchboard directly into the Bose T1. I have a setup that I love. It works perfectly for me mainly because I took the time and put in the effort to make it work for me.

My dad had a great saying. When I'd complain that something didn't work, he'd say, "I think it might be the carpenter and not the hammer." And he was almost always right!

Matt

[rb1591]

For 20 years, I've been using a pair of Bose 802s with great success (I bought them used, so I really don't know how old they are). Their are rugged, fairly light weight and pack well. Using in-ear monitors and a pair of small JBL subs, my duo or trio can cover most mid sized gigs with ease.

But as someone earlier said ... there is no substitute for power. And 802s require a pretty good bit of power, but then again, power is much cheaper now than ever before.

Sonically they are ideal for acoustic and light electric music, IMO. Great dispersion. Very musical.

Downside? You MUST have the processor and they are not cheap.

RB

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by knuckle

That's the last time I'll play through one of those tinny things.

Originally Posted by knuckle

So, I'm not bashing Bose fans

Really. So if, after hearing you play, I said in public.. "that's the last time I'll ever listen to that tinny sounding guitar player" you wouldn't consider that bashing you?

Originally Posted by knuckle

I don't know if the eq was not setup right but all the thing did was pierce my ears and feedback for an hour.

I don't get it? Are you suggesting the litmus test of a good sound system must in fact be that it sounds great no matter who Titanically abuses the initial setup? If you brought your K12's to a gig and I (being the sound man) pointed them at you, you don't think I could abuse some eq and literally tear your head off...complete with "piercing" feedback? That wouldn't be a design flaw of the K12's would it? I mean name me one PA system dating back to 1950 that wasn't capable of tearing your head off. They don't exist. They're all capable of that and it simply can't be how anyone judges the quality of a sound system. In the end it's who's running it yes?

I mean you're not suggesting that the Bose (because of some inherent design flaw) are prone to "pierce someone's ears" more than any other system out there are you? If so I got a couple of old Clubmen 8' Peavey speakers with the old 48 cent piezo element and narrow plastic flare that I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar will sterilize you and any healthy 18 year old on earth from 30 feet. I believe they're capable of piercing peoples souls.

Mixing great sound is a talent. It's not a tangible, purchasable item. There's always gonna be Bose bashers. It's built into our society. It's like bashing Pro Tools or Apple or a thousand other products that for whatever reason fly the conspiracy/black helicopter banner.. In the end the Bose (in the proper hands) can, like every other system out there, sound remarkable.

Originally Posted by knuckle

Here's a hint Bose. Small speakers = trebly sound. I know everyone is going to hate me for saying that.

I've neither owned or EVER played through a Bose system. Honestly I'm also not particularly compelled to use them. I'm clearly not bias towards them from any previous purchase. That said I have heard a duo in town play through two of them (I couldn't tell you which one) and the sound was utterly impressive. Never during the evening did I come to the conclusion that "small equals trebly". That's not only sonically incorrect but physically incorrect as well. I'm sure they knew what they were doing with the systems and undoubtedly that helped but I can assure you tinny wasn't the proper description.

[tochiro]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

The only problem with the Bose L1 systems is that unless a performer can stand or sit at least six to eight feet away from the system, the elevation of the performer's ears will hear a lot more of the mid-/treble-range frequencies from the cylindrical radiator (stick) and not enough of the bass frequencies from the B1 Bass Module

Yes, that's something I have always experienced. And even six feet away is not enough to get rid of it. Every time we play we check the sound in the room and it's quite different from the stage and much better balanced. That's true. But that's a problem because while playing and singing you want to hear a sound that inspires you.

After more than 2 years with the L1 in very different situations I can say we've tried many different positions, mics, settings, etc. and we concluded that it's good for small volume venues (40% max. on the master volume knob of the ToneMatch). We've also found that the voices sounded really well but it was difficult to have a good sound natural with the guitars.

[jjrubin]

I've posted lots (incl. live performance clips) about my experience with a Bose L1 Model II with T1. Won't rehash it all here...

Just want to thank Open Road Matt, whose Bose posts 2.5 years back were so sane, credible and compelling (in contrast to the contentious, polarized hyperbole surrounding this topic then as now). Matt's posts helped me make a big, tough decision to invest in my Bose system --as a newly fulltime musician with limited funds and much trepidation about live sound generally.

And while I love my guitars and have spent more on just one of them than all my sound gear combined, I consider the Bose the single best investment I've made in my music.

In the best cases (not always; but usually, for the kind of venues my fingerstyle-based acoustic sound belongs), the Bose gives me the most control, with the least wearisome load-in, set-up and reverse-out, with a sound that satisfies my critical ears. Yes there are trade-offs -- I've struggled in loud bars -- as any approach to personal/portable/quality sound realistically entails. But if I were starting out all over, the first thing I'd budget for -- ahead of the fancy Adi/Madi OM -- would be another L1/T1.

Thanks Matt!

[TerryAllanHall]

Originally Posted by tochiro

Hi,

I play in a duet and we have 2 acoustic guitars, 1 electric guitar, 2 voices and bass + drums on an mp3 player. We have been playing for more than 2 years with a Bose L1 model 2 with two bass bins.

Recently we realized we now rarely play in really small venues and there are over 100 people when we play (sometimes 200 or 300). Such an audience can be noisy and requires more power than we needed before. The Bose L1 is behind us and we have a few problems with it such as:

- We rarely have enough space behind us to put the Bose at the recommended distance so that the sound we hear is not that good.
- We have feedback problems.
- The volume we hear is too high.
- There is a lack of low-mids and mids, the sound seems a bit artificial and lack warmth although we spent hours adjusting it.

Anyway, we wonder if we should go the QSC route or another make of active speakers. But we need a small equipment because we only have a car. Something that's easy to install/uninstall and adjust.

What is your experience? Thank you for your time.

Cheers

There's valid reasons why so many pros prefer not to to plug into a Bose L1!

Sounds like you need a real PA system, and there are some pretty compact systems out there, although they take a bit longer to set up (otoh, with two performers, it's not that much trouble).

And active speakers aren't the only option...quite a few of us use passive speakers and powered mixers, and there are advantages to those, as well.

Explore your options.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by TerryAllanHall

There's valid reasons why so many pros prefer not to to plug into a Bose L1!

Jeez. It's a $1000.00 portable PA that does EXACTLY what it is intended to do. It was designed to be easy to carry, easy to set up and tear down, fairly loud, a true line array that (for convenience of the schleper) makes monitors optional, has one power cable, built in crossover and fits in the back seat of a car. As I mentioned earlier I've heard them sound amazingly, amazingly good all things considered and in the hands of someone who knows the system and in a room that it was designed to handle. What a pro may or may not think about a Bose stick PA seems so Titanically irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I mean...if you bring a hammer instead of a scalpel into brain surgery it ain't the hammer's fault.

[jjrubin]

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/...9/m/9961033695

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/...4/m/5490048806

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by TerryAllanHall

There's valid reasons why so many pros prefer not to to plug into a Bose L1!

Please list some of the reasons. Thanks!

Regards,

SpruceTop

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by jjrubin

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/...4/m/5490048806

Oh for gosh sakes. This is an example of a "pro" using the Bose as a close MONITOR in a controlled keyboard pit, not a FOH PA. Big, big, big difference.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by jjrubin

Just want to thank Open Road Matt, whose Bose posts 2.5 years back were so sane, credible and compelling (in contrast to the contentious, polarized hyperbole surrounding this topic then as now). Matt's posts helped me make a big, tough decision to invest in my Bose system --as a newly fulltime musician with limited funds and much trepidation about live sound generally.

You are more than welcome Jon! Thanks for the kind words about my posts and I'm glad they helped. I try as hard as I can to keep emotion out of my posts about the Bose but that can be hard to do. Like most folks, I'm passionate about the gear I've chosen and I often feel, because I've spent a lot of time, money and energy making my gear choices that it is personal and I hate to see something that means a lot to unfairly bashed.

I enjoy a good back and forth about any piece of gear and there are some folks on here who have certainly given a Bose L1 a good try, have found it's not for them and can speak eloquently as to why. Those are posts that I enjoy and I learn a lot from those points of view. The posts that frustrate me are the ones that just bash for the sake of bashing.

For those of us who play our music in tons of different venues, there is no perfect system. There will always be sacrifices in one area or another. The Bose works the best for me and for what I do and any negatives are far outweighed by the positives.

I had double hernia surgery on 6/17 and I did my first show on 6/22. I did the show with my L1 Compact and I'll be playing pretty much exclusively with my Compact until my lifting restrictions are over. My wife has been coming with me to help get things on a cart and move things around a little bit but I think it's pretty safe to say that if I relied on a conventional sound system with big speakers on sticks, I'd be out of work until I was totally healed. So for me that's just another mark in the positive column for Bose!

Matt

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by jjrubin

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/...9/m/9961033695

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/...4/m/5490048806

Come on JJ. You amended your post and made me read through all of your amendments and EACH and EVERY example was again of a "pro" using the Bose as some sort of monitor or side fill. I (for the record) would imagine a couple of Bose sticks in stereo would make a DROP DEAD great monitor system of which anyone might really dig and for good reason. I can only imagine. Bath yourself, in yourself, in stereo. Monitor side fills don't have to push much air to reach it's intended target. In all of your examples the artist is nose to nose with the Bose.

In the end this has absolutely nothing to do with a duo trying to decide Bose or QSC K 12's for FOH.

[tochiro]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

In the end this has absolutely nothing to do with a duo trying to decide Bose or QSC K 12's for FOH.

No problem :-) We're here to exchange ideas and this thread is a great resource for me. I will keep the forum informed of what we decide for the PA.

[Dave45]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

I have heard complaints from folks who "tried out" a Bose that someone else set up for them. The Bose approach definitely takes some getting used to. I was using in-ears when I switched to the Bose and it took a while to get used to hearing myself from behind. It also took a while for me to find the right mic and I've been through a lot of different preamps, pickups, etc.

To my ears, vocals sound wonderful and natural through a Bose. The guitar sound can be challenging. I think that something about the technology that allows such a small system to fill such a big space does something a bit unnatural to the sound of an acoustic guitar. I always prefer my guitar through a bigger speaker but with some tweaking, I have a sound I'm very happy with and I can fill a city block with music with a system that fits in the trunk of a Toyota Camry!

I would offer this: if you care about how you sound, you'll sound good through a Bose L1. Why wouldn't you? The tools are there. You may prefer the sound of one system to another but if you know how to make yourself sound good through a "conventional" sound system and you get used to hearing yourself from behind you, you'll make yourself sound good through a Bose.

Frankly, most folks have no idea how they sound. I didn't. I had a big set of speakers on sticks and heard myself through in-ears. Once I started hearing EXACTLY what the audience was hearing, every night at every show, I couldn't help but to strive to improve every aspect of my live sound. It's cost me a lot of time and money but I have learned so much. I learned what mic(s) fit my voice, I improved my singing technique, I'm constantly moving songs to keys that feel better and sound better. I learned how to use parametric EQ to shape the tone of my guitars. I added a Porchboard for a nice low end. And the list goes on.

I now sing through either a Neumann KMS105 or an Audix OM-5 depending on the venue/situation and I run my guitar and ukulele into an Avalon U5 and my Porchboard directly into the Bose T1. I have a setup that I love. It works perfectly for me mainly because I took the time and put in the effort to make it work for me.

My dad had a great saying. When I'd complain that something didn't work, he'd say, "I think it might be the carpenter and not the hammer." And he was almost always right!

Matt

Thanks for all the guidance. Long time listener, first time caller here.

Google brought me to this post from a few years back as I try to decide what to do following purchase of my first L1 Model 2 system. Our setups are remarkably similar; I'm coming from 2 3-way 15"s on sticks, I too use in ears, and a KMS105/OM7 depending on the situation. I have a StudioLive RM (just went wireless from old SL Classic) to run it all.

The one thing I have noticed is that while my former PA sounded like, well, a nice PA, the Bose simply sounds like me, with a guitar, playing next to you, but louder. That takes some getting used to, and I'm not entirely positive I always like it, haha!

As has been said before, it really depends on the performance. For those bars (and it seems like there are fewer and fewer these days), that are traditional music venues, and want you to really rock out, loud... The Bose simply won't be as thrilling as sitting right in the sweet spot between two great cabinets. I also struggle a bit with low-end feedback on my Taylors when I really try and crank it, and they are typically extremely well behaved, even with wedges pointed right at them. There's also no substitute for running in stereo IMO (I only have one L1), even as a solo- verbs just sound so much more rich. Overall, as a PA for those right in front, I'd say it gets 75-80% of the way there.

But for my average (and increasingly common) restaurant / bar / wedding / market gig where the owners want some background music, and people are all over the place on and off axis, the Bose will sound fine to more people, and let more people talk WHILE still hearing you, and be less of a pain to maneuver into tight spots. Not to mention to get there in the first place.

I think I'm gonna keep this L1 thing. I like it. Maybe see what the StudioLive's SMAART calibration and GEQ can do to open up the high end more (I also miss the air above 10-12k, which this doesn't seem to do well lacking metal domes) or quash any interaction with my guitar & the lows at higher volume. But it does enough of what I want to do, enough of the time, while being easier to transport, that I like it. I just don't know whether I can sell the bigger PA, which is what I was planning on when I bought this! Ha! But to justify both to the old lady...

-Dave