Differences in Lacquer

[Quickstep192]

I'm wondering how much difference there is among the various types of nitro lacquer.

I've been practicing spraying Behlen Stringed Instrument Lacquer for a while and with my fledgling spraying skills, I struggle to get a good "off the gun" finish.

Recently though, I sprayed a non-instrument project using Deft Lacquer Aerosol. It turned out beautifully! And that was from a rattle can!

It made me wonder how different "instrument" lacquer is from other nitro lacquer and the liabilities of using furniture lacquer on a guitar.

Any thoughts?

[charles Tauber]

"Lacquer" is a huge subject, as is "finishing".

There is/can be considerable difference between one brand, one type of nitrocellulose lacquer and another.

With a gun, numerous factors come into play regarding viscosity of the finish being sprayed, nozzle (tip/orifice) size, air pressure, air volume, mixture ratio of air to finish, water and oil in the air, spray technique and so on. With a spray can, most of those variables have been set by the manufacturer of the finish/can, leaving, mostly, some technique, surface preparation, cleanliness/lack of surface contamination, ambient temperature and humidity.

I've tried a lot of finishes over the years and have concluded that there are many different finishes that can be used quite adequately for musical instruments. Nitrocellulose lacquer, these days, is way down my list of finishes that I'd chose to use.

A big part of choosing a finish has to do with what equipment and environment you have or are willing to purchase/setup. Top-notch results can be obtained with a rag, a brush, spray can and/or spray equipment. One chooses a finish according to the results one wants and how one wants to apply it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't get hung up on the idea that guitars have to be finished with a specific finish or it is "not right".

I recently attended a "guitar day" at a local wood supplier. There were four presentations/demos/lectures, two of which were on finishing. One of the finishing demos was using wipe-on poly in a sort of French polish application, the other demo was on "hard wax". Neither would be my choice, but points out that there are many more "acceptable" options for finishing guitars than there were several decades ago. Most of this is due to makers and consumers being willing to accept these finishes where once if it wasn't nitrocellulose lacquer, it wasn't "professional".

[Truckjohn]

Yes - there are big differences in lacquer products - even within genuine nitro lacquer... Each company blends it a little differently. As you experiment with different brands - likely you will find one you like better than the others.

One thing to keep in mind is that often "musical instrument lacquer" contains a teeny bit of castor oil as a plasticizer so it doesn't crack when the instrument flexes...

You may need to experiment with your lacquer blend to get the best results off the spray gun.

I also found that the ambient temperature makes a huge difference... And if the weather is too warm - thinners evaporate too fast and lacquer doesn't lay down right. More thinner didn't always make it better... I had to spray at night instead...

The other thing is.. Not all spray can "Lacquer" finishes are lacquer. Many spray can products are other things branded as lacquer.. One sure give away is that if it cleans up with paint thinner - its not lacquer..

[Frank Ford]

NItrocellulose lacquer formulation varies from different makers, and even from batch to batch from a single maker.

We're generally looking for a delicate balance between hardness and flexibility of the finish - hard enough to level and polish easily, soft and flexible enough to handle temperature variations and small amounts of wood flexing.

A good instrument lacquer maker continually tests batches to assure predictable results.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Quickstep192

I'm wondering how much difference there is among the various types of nitro lacquer.

I've been practicing spraying Behlen Stringed Instrument Lacquer for a while and with my fledgling spraying skills, I struggle to get a good "off the gun" finish.

Recently though, I sprayed a non-instrument project using Deft Lacquer Aerosol. It turned out beautifully! And that was from a rattle can!

It made me wonder how different "instrument" lacquer is from other nitro lacquer and the liabilities of using furniture lacquer on a guitar.

Any thoughts?

Nitro lacquers vary a lot. Nitrocellulose is not even the main solid in many of them.

Behlens Stringed Instrument lacquer is pretty strongly plasticized, which makes it not only more flexible but also softer when dry. Most people I know who have used it think it is softer than necessary. That won't be the thing that determines how good a finish you get off the gun, but it does affect how well it sands and rubs out. I use it under the Mohawk name (Behlens professional line) and blend it with their Piano lacquer, which is not so plasticized.

Most lacquer intended for furniture is quite a bit harder and stiffer, and likely to check if used on an acoustic guitar.

[HarryQ]

I'm glad you had good luck using Deft. I swore it off after using it a couple of times when it never hardened properly. I've had good luck with Behlens, so I guess it's hard to make generalizations.

[Quickstep192]

Thanks everyone for your valuable comments. They've prompted a few more questions.

Charles, if nitro is way down your list, what's at the top?


I'm wondering if anyone prefers other instrument nitros like Seagrave or Cardinal?

This is an age old question, but gas anyone has reliable success with a waterborne "lacquer"?

[charles Tauber]

I've tried a lot of different finishes and equipment over the last three decades. There are lots of different finishes (and equipment) that can be used to produce an acceptable finish. The choice of which finish and what equipment is largely a personal one and is based in part on finances, working environment, willingness to buy and learn to use unfamiliar equipment, health concerns, the results you want and just personal preference.

To cut to the chase, my current preferred finishes and methods are those that require the least equipment and the least concern for health and property. I've tried many water-based finishes over the years, starting with some really awful ones. Last year, I sprayed with a new-to-me, Target EM7000 water-based finish and two Target sealers, one shellac-based. After much frustration, I concluded that the EM7000 was a bad batch that would bubble as it dried, an hour after a coat. I switched to EM6000 that worked very well and, in my opinion, rivals traditional nitrocellulose lacquer in appearance and feel. I didn't like the amber color of their water-based shellac sealer. Their EM1000 sealer worked well, but probably isn't necessary. I spray it with an HVLP turbine and appropriate gun. Ned reports brushing it on with success. No concern about flammability, though it does smell pretty awful. Their pore filler is no treat, requiring three applications - and "de-applications" - to fill the pores. Sanding the filler instantly ruins sandpapers: scraping it worked better for me. I prefer a traditional paste pore filler.

My other current preference is French polish. A "rag", a "bottle" and elbow grease. No noise, no fans, no respirator, minimal health concern. Like many other finishes, it does require practice and learning.

Other people have other preferences and produce good results with those preferences. What it really boils down to is that each person find what works for themselves. That involves a certain amount of trial and error. There are many finishing methods and materials to chose from. What works well for one person might not work so well for another, or be something that one wants to invest in. For example, I've not had any real interest in trying UV-cured finishes with the investment in equipment and setup that requires. In the right situation, those can be a wonderful finish, just not the one for me in my small-shop environment.

[phavriluk]

Everybody's happy at differing levels of effort and results. What pleases me may torment someone else. For example, I finished a dreadnought with Deft rattle cans. Did the neck in gloss, looked at it and applied satin. Gift from the gods, by my lights. Did the body (after the neck) with Z-poxy and Deft rattle-can satin. Just delighted. But that's me. What I did like was the setup and cleanup that comes with shooting successive applications of Deft, none whatever. Just put the can back on the shelf. I hate to spend fifteen minutes setting up and fifteen minutes knocking down and applying lacquer for five minutes in between. If I had a lot of finish to apply, the labor equation would look much different. And I found the Deft rattle-can satin as hard a finish as the Behlen gloss instrument lacquer applied to my prior project. I'm sure opinions and judgement will change over time with experience, but right now I'm pleased.

[MC5C]

I had really good results with Brite-tone instrument lacquer. It's water based, self-catalyzed and cross-linking, very transparent, sprays easily, use trans-tint colours, drys very fast, no smell. I can buy it and have it shipped in Canada, bonus.

Brian

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by MC5C

I had really good results with Brite-tone instrument lacquer.

I've used their pore filler and found it "adequate" but a lot of work. Target products are also available in Canada, through Wood Essence and now Lee Valley.

[CabinetMan]

I use Valspar Precat on my cabinets and is probably what I'm going to use on my first build. Sprays, covers and sands VERY well. I use their dyes, oil stains, glazes, etc. also.
I am in the process of switching over to their Zenith line of water based products because after MANY years of spraying I'm starting to have a few allergies to the solvent based products now. But I don't know if I'm ready yet to try using it on this guitar. Their is a learning curve to it after using the solvent products for so long.
Anyone have experience using Pre-cat on Guitars?

[Otterhound]

I know a man with considerable knowledge and experience that uses Sherwin-Williams lacquer . Preparation and compatibility are so important in obtaining a quality end product .

[CabinetMan]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

I know a man with considerable knowledge and experience that uses Sherwin-Williams lacquer . Preparation and compatibility are so important in obtaining a quality end product .

VERY TRUE!