Public Domain

Mandobart · #1 02-21-2018, 04:10 PM

What is the easiest way to tell if a song is in the public domain? Just got word that the local farmer's market ($200 for a 2 hour outdoor gig, and lots of fun) now requires all performers to play only their originals or public domain songs. I'm pretty sure most of the bluegrass, old time, folk and trad I do is ok, but how do I make sure short of searching the catalogs of all the PRO's?

There's BMI, ASCAP and SESAC to deal with. I'm not posting this thread to debate the tactics of the PRO's, copywrite law or how songwriters get paid (or dont). I've done that plenty on other threads. I will comply with the wishes of the people paying me $100/hr to play at one of my favorite venues. Just looking for an efficient way to do that - hoping I don't have to search through the entire catalogs of BMI, ASCAP and SESAC. Thanks!

Song Writer · #2 02-21-2018, 04:24 PM

Copyright date search through the Library of Congress.

https://copyright.gov

DungBeatle · #3 02-21-2018, 04:35 PM

Not having a registered copyright doesn't mean a song is in the public domain.
=Bob=

FrankHudson · #4 02-21-2018, 04:50 PM

If was first published before 1923, it's Public Domain in the US. Next year we finally get new "for sure it's PD" material from 1923.

Given how much PD and folk material was reused and copyrighted as original material over the years, there might be a huge grey area there, but I don't know how the rights organizations might handle that. If someone in 1940 wanted to record or issue sheet music claiming they wrote "Pretty Polly" or "Goin' Where the Southern Cross the Dog" the performance rights organizations might claim that it's "their" song. I have never heard of that happening in a situation similar to yours, and I don't know if it's a likely issue.

"We Shall Overcome" and "Happy Birthday" are two well known songs where this grey area has been part of recent US court decisions. In both cases the copyright owners gave up their copyrights based on evidence that they used PD material in the songs they felt they had the rights too.

I used to do the opposite. For example, whenever I'd play "Girl from the North Country" as an instrumental I'd say it was a traditional tune based on "Scarborough Fair"--which it is. But I've always played mostly original stuff when playing out.

I despair often with my project for the past couple of years which involves written words combined with music. There's no searchable database for written work, and a great deal of published written work post 1923 has fallen out of copyright in the US because the copyright was not renewed, but there is NO searchable database for that. The only way you can tell is to pay someone at the copyright office (by the hour) to search through paper records. At least with ASCAP et al you have a searchable database of some worth, and with physical recordings (different for live) a fairly easy way to obtain a mechanical license to put it on a CD.

FrankHudson · #5 02-21-2018, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Song Writer

Copyright date search through the Library of Congress.

https://copyright.gov

If you know of an online searchable database somewhere on the US Copyright office site where I can find out if a particular work is in or out of copyright, and can supply the link to that, you'll make me the happiest guy on this forum.

(Yes, I know there's an "is in copyright" from 1978 onwards, but that's not really helpful)

Just so my tone is clear: this is absolutely not sarcasm. I so wish it were so.

Big Band Guitar · #6 02-21-2018, 05:13 PM

Avoiding Royalties

The venue is only trying to avoid paying licensing fees.

If the restriction is in the contract I would not play a venue like that.
It is just too much work for the risk.

If there is no contract then it is the venue that is on the hook not the performer.

ASCAP and the others are too big a gorilla to mess with.

jpd · #7 02-21-2018, 06:13 PM

This is a good start...http://publicdomain4u.com/public-domain-genres/pop

MikeBmusic · #8 02-22-2018, 08:17 AM

The people organizing the Farmers Market should contact BMI/ASCAP and inquire on the fees. How are they going to police what's played? If you (or another performer) "accidentally" plays a licensed song, and the 'goons' are listening, then the trouble starts.
What would happen if your originals were registered with BMI (like mine are)?

RedJoker · #9 02-22-2018, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Band Guitar

Avoiding Royalties

The venue is only trying to avoid paying licensing fees.

If the restriction is in the contract I would not play a venue like that.
It is just too much work for the risk.

If there is no contract then it is the venue that is on the hook not the performer.

ASCAP and the others are too big a gorilla to mess with.

On the other hand, I don't really see that this is a problem. If they allowed covers but didn't want to pay, that's different. In my mind, they are recognizing the limitation and making that part of your contract. Like you pointed out, the performer can just turn down the gig if they couldn't meet the requirements.

Maybe I'm looking at this too simplistically.

KevWind · #10 02-22-2018, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedJoker

On the other hand, I don't really see that this is a problem. If they allowed covers but didn't want to pay, that's different. In my mind, they are recognizing the limitation and making that part of your contract. Like you pointed out, the performer can just turn down the gig if they couldn't meet the requirements.

Maybe I'm looking at this too simplistically.

Not at all, I think your looking at it sensibly practically . The biggest issue would actually be "if" as a performer you know and can play enough PD and originals, to play a 2 hour gig.

The next biggest issue would seem to be as the OP stated, how to find out what material is PD

jpd offered one link

here is another

https://www.pdinfo.com/public-domain-music-list.php

Song Writer · #11 02-22-2018, 10:54 AM

See what happens when you don't have originals? In the words of Ferris (my hero), "I would highly recommend you obtaining some."

PorkPieGuy · #12 02-22-2018, 11:03 AM

Google specific songs you are playing and see if they are public domain.

Weeding through a huge list of public domain songs is working at it a little backwards (IMO of course). Just look up the ones you play.

KevWind · #13 02-22-2018, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy

Google specific songs you are playing and see if they are public domain.

Weeding through a huge list of public domain songs is working at it a little backwards (IMO of course). Just look up the ones you play.

Ever tried that suggestion ?

PorkPieGuy · #14 02-22-2018, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind

Ever tried that suggestion ?

As in, did I ever just look up the specific songs as opposed to referring to long lists?

Yup.

For four different projects I recorded, produced, and sold.

It worked well for me.

KevWind · #15 02-22-2018, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy

As in, did I ever just look up the specific songs as opposed to referring to long lists?

Yup.

For four different projects I recorded, produced, and sold.

It worked well for me.

Humm ? What exact search words did you goggle ? Before I asked I had just tried "Copyright Days of 49" and got nowhere I got links to Dylans version of it and links to various other versions by various other artists etc.
But no actual info on the original or if it is in PD

I also Googled " Is the song Days of 49 in the public domain " which went nowhere also ?
Now according to one book I have it is listed as Traditional which I assume means public domain but did not get any such reference by gooling the words I used .