"My guitar only louder" is not a good goal

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by varmonter

so you cut everything below 200hz ??
is that a bit thin? or is this what makes it cut through the mix?

I suspect you're referencing a post by lschwart. I'm pretty sure he wasn't specifically writing about cutting through a mix but instead about bettering the psycho-acoustics of a very loud acoustic guitar where our minds/ears perceive a bloom in the bass and treble as the Fletcher Munson curves illustrate.

Perhaps only tangentially related but when I'm mixing a recording I often drastically cut the lower frequencies to help guitars sit better.

[RockerDuck]

I play in loud restaurant/bars every month. Tried many different things, that worked but not to my satisfaction. I grabbed my Fishman mini and dialed in my guitar to sound as good as possible, then used the DI out to the PA. Works like a charm. It might not be the best, but at least its standard in all situations.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by RockerDuck

I play in loud restaurant/bars every month. Tried many different things, that worked but not to my satisfaction. I grabbed my Fishman mini and dialed in my guitar to sound as good as possible, then used the DI out to the PA. Works like a charm. It might not be the best, but at least its standard in all situations.

I used to wonder about this when I saw it done by experienced gigging folks but I'm now coming around. The benefits are clear. Low weight (like 19lbs), fairly low cost, no wrestling with the sound guy for more acoustic guitar in the monitors, yada yada.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I suspect you're referencing a post by lschwart. I'm pretty sure he wasn't specifically writing about cutting through a mix but instead about bettering the psycho-acoustics of a very loud acoustic guitar where our minds/ears perceive a bloom in the bass and treble as the Fletcher Munson curves illustrate.

Perhaps only tangentially related but when I'm mixing a recording I often drastically cut the lower frequencies to help guitars sit better.

ah yes it was a quote of him quoting you. i edited thanks.

[steelvibe]

Well the good thing about the loud bar issue is that there is libation-a-plenty. So, everything sounds better when you've had a few, and most of those guys will shout "Freebird" in a certain amount of time anyway. Not the most discerning group.

Now playing in a church or especially a paid solo fingerstyle gig- that is a different story. Then "my guitar only louder" is at least a worthy goal however elusive. Right?

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by varmonter

lshwart

so you cut everything below 200hz ??
is that a bit thin? or is this what makes it cut through the mix?

Outside of the band mix it certainly does sound thinner than I'd like, but with bass and hand percussion in the band, it just helps make the acoustic rhythm guitar sit in the mix when things are just too noisy to allow for a lot of subtlety in the sound and things get loud. It also takes away a source of muddiness in the mix by just getting the guitar more fully out of the areas that overlap with the bass and drums. Helps with feedback, too, when the stage levels start to rise.... A clearer mix means less temptation to turn up as a way of competing with crowd noise or as a way of making the monitors easier to hear.

Under more normal conditions, I have the HPF on the PZ-Pre set at 80Hz.

Also, the HPF on the PZ-Pre doesn't actually cut everything below the shelving point. It has a slope to it, so there is still some lower end present in the guitar sound. My pickup is a Baggs M1, and I always cut at around 1.5kHz, which is the problem zone for that pickup in that guitar. When I have to use the 200 Hz HPF, I will boost just a little in the 700-800Hz range at the mixer, and that helps give the sound a little more body.

Louis

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Well the good thing about the loud bar issue is that there is libation-a-plenty. So, everything sounds better when you've had a few, and most of those guys will shout "Freebird" in a certain amount of time anyway. Not the most discerning group.

Now playing in a church or especially a paid solo fingerstyle gig- that is a different story. Then "my guitar only louder" is at least a worthy goal however elusive. Right?

Absolutely.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by RockerDuck

I play in loud restaurant/bars every month. Tried many different things, that worked but not to my satisfaction. I grabbed my Fishman mini and dialed in my guitar to sound as good as possible, then used the DI out to the PA. Works like a charm. It might not be the best, but at least its standard in all situations.

I use the Fishman spectrum aura modeler and it's awesome for live work.

There's no way to amplify an acoustic guitar sound and have it be the sound of an acoustic guitar. At that point it's an amplified acoustic guitar sound. Dah!?

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I use the Fishman spectrum aura modeler and it's awesome for live work.

There's no way to amplify an acoustic guitar sound and have it be the sound of an acoustic guitar. At that point it's an amplified acoustic guitar sound. Dah!?

Oh contrare' mon frere'
I can achieve a very close proximity to the "voice" of my acoustic unplugged.
Yes it's no longer an acoustic only sound but it is the sound of my acoustic only louder.
I accomplish this with a Fishman Platinum Pro DI/EQ into a powered speaker.
In smaller venues where not a lot of volume is needed I have been able to do it.

[AeroUSA]

I agree with your statement and I have said it myself.

I have to say that I’m using tonedexter again and with my Yamaha undersaddle it’s working great. The blend is always there if you need it on the latest firmware.

Which pickup were you using in the guitar last night?

[Vancebo]

Good discussion here. I am a fellow chaser of all things acoustic and natural sounding for years. So I can easily get caught up in the debate over how to achieve acoustic bliss. I mean, come on guys, what’s better than sitting for hours playing a great acoustic guitar? Playing that great acoustic guitar at ear piercing volumes! Well, as long as it still sounds like your guitar.

I remember sound checks years ago when it was time to set the level of the acoustic guitar. Yep it was loud in every monitor, and sounded very natural and warm. Why not, I had the best gear money could buy. Once the band licked in, forget it, that’s the last I heard of me. Dual sourcing with my Pendulum SPS 1 was fine going solo but wasn’t helping in the real world of live band through a inadequate PA or house system. I had to learn that I needed a sound that would cut through a mix and not get buried. That’s when I went to easy mode.

My Dazzo pickup is passive. It sounds natural with no piezo quack at all. Sounds like there is a mic in it. Then I use good EQ. The Red-Eye works wonders when I have a good sound man. The Grace Alix is even better when I have to take control of my sound and I have power to plug into.

So, back to the my guitar only louder issue. Bottom line, it doesn’t always work. In fact, it doesn’t work in most situations. But I look at it like this. I would rather start with my guitar only louder than start with an ice pick tone or nails on a chalkboard sound. With good EQ I can get to whatever place I need to be rather easily without drastic EQ adjustments. That HPF does come in handy in a band situation. The Tonedexter gets you to the my guitar only louder spot but does it have enough tools to get you where you need to be in any situation without bringing on more gear?

I still may try one of those Tonedexter someday.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by lschwart

Outside of the band mix it certainly does sound thinner than I'd like, but with bass and hand percussion in the band, it just helps make the acoustic rhythm guitar sit in the mix when things are just too noisy to allow for a lot of subtlety in the sound and things get loud. It also takes away a source of muddiness in the mix by just getting the guitar more fully out of the areas that overlap with the bass and drums. Helps with feedback, too, when the stage levels start to rise.... A clearer mix means less temptation to turn up as a way of competing with crowd noise or as a way of making the monitors easier to hear.

Under more normal conditions, I have the HPF on the PZ-Pre set at 80Hz.

Also, the HPF on the PZ-Pre doesn't actually cut everything below the shelving point. It has a slope to it, so there is still some lower end present in the guitar sound. My pickup is a Baggs M1, and I always cut at around 1.5kHz, which is the problem zone for that pickup in that guitar. When I have to use the 200 Hz HPF, I will boost just a little in the 700-800Hz range at the mixer, and that helps give the sound a little more body.

Louis

thanks i've been toying around with this myself.
when we play at loud venues i've been basically "thinning my guitar
out to try and keep the mud down at higher volumes. i usually hp
at around 115 at least with our Touchmix mixer this seems to work
well with my taylor which nontypicically has a very nice bass side to it.

[Petty1818]

I have been saying this for a while. I always thought I wanted the most natural tone possible but after trying the Lyric, Amulet and even the Anthem SL, I have come to the conclusion that most natural often means a lack of warmth & bass. Admittedly, my Taylor is not the fullest and warmest guitar but still, even the Anthem SL sounded thin when amplified.

For years, I used a Fishman Matrix blend system and although I never fully loved the tone, the set up was always so easy. I tried the aura and found that it thinned out my tone, but that's when I went on a search for something more natural. The results as mentioned, have been disappointing and my guitar actually sounds quite different acoustically now. Somehow, the Matrix blend system actually produced a warmer acoustic tone. Since removing all of the stuff inside (I currently have the Amulet), my guitar has sounded thin and just not inspiring. Not really sure what to do with that but that's another topic.

One pickup I have always loved is the Takamine system. It doesn't matter if the guitar is a small body or a dreadnought, the system always sounds huge through a PA and it's actually quite natural. You can strum hard and there's no quack. I wish I could find a system like this but I realize how the guitar is pretty much built around it.

I am currently playing with the Tonedexter and I see some potential here. I want to remove the Amulet as it produces a thin tone. I know the TD is supposed to correct this but I am sure that the Amulet is still imparting some of that thin tone on the wavemap. I am down to trying the K&K or going for a simple Matrix UST. Fishman just released the new Matrix and I like that it has a control for body sizes. I know the K&K is a sbt and fairly natural but I have always felt as though it produced a nice warm and fat tone.

To the OP, have you tried the newest firmware on the TD? If so, how did you find the blend control? I feel like this might be a way to get the desired tones that you are after.

[rokdog49]

That's why I use a Fishman Platinum Pro with EQ with all my pickups.
You can dial anything in or out with it. It makes good pickups great and bad pickups good.
Not many users on here...I'm a little baffled but hey, whatever works for everybody.

[Beagle1]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

... Or at least an "imperfect" goal.

I've been struggling, as I'm sure many of you have, to get a good reproduction of my guitar on stage. I've tried several different pickup and pre-amp combinations with varying results. But one of the things I'm really beginning to understand is that my desire for "my guitar only louder" isn't a particularly useful goal.

My understanding of why this happens is extremely poor. Here's the deal... I recently achieved an almost hyper-accurate representation of my guitar via the Tonedexter system. When played through headphones or through my Schertler Unico or Soundcraft/Yamaha PA at attentive listening levels, it sounds amazing. But when we play loud bars (and it always seems to happen when I have no control) the guitar sounds beyond bad. Tinny, ice-picky and thin are my most common complaints.

I'm thinking that I may start bringing my Unico to use as a monitor and that the DI-out can go to the house. Then at least I can have it sound good on the stage.

OP, I think it depends a lot on your playing environment. Like you said, with bigger stages and places where there is more ambient noise (loud bars), "my guitar only louder" might not work so well. In those situations, I find some sort of system with an undersaddle pickup carrying more of the core tone is what I want, even though UST's tend to sound pretty strident when just playing in your living room. On the other hand, if you're playing in a very controlled environment (room/hall with acoustics optimized for musical performances), then the systems that try to impart more of the acoustic sound of your instrument may work really well.