Playing with Rhythm

[polarred21]

Originally Posted by taylormark

When I got home I grabbed the guitar and started waking on the treadmill (about 1 mph) being careful not to fall off. I walked for 1/2 mile and played some of the best rhythm ever. Also burned 60 calories......

Now THAT sounds like a YT instructional video waiting to happen....

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by JonPR

That helps you with a groove - playing syncopations etc against the beat - but it doesn't help you stay in time.
Plenty of amateurs tap their foot and still play out of time.

And marching is SO much better? Did you read the post before mine? Given the choice between marching and tapping, it's a no brainer! I have NO timing problems, and honestly, I haven't since I started piano in the early 60's. This may sound like heresy to some, but when it comes to timing, one has it, or doesn't. I can't count how many drummers (!) have lousy timing, changing tempo mid-song (mid measure!). The only thing I'd ever use a metronome for is to establish tempo. I think that's what the instructor in the OP was getting at.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

And marching is SO much better?

Sure.

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Did you read the post before mine?

The post before yours was one of mine .

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Given the choice between marching and tapping, it's a no brainer!

Yes, but we can't all be marching while we're playing.

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I have NO timing problems, and honestly, I haven't since I started piano in the early 60's.

That suggests you did a lot of marching when younger?

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

This may sound like heresy to some, but when it comes to timing, one has it, or doesn't.

I wouldn't call it heresy. I'd call it a common sense conclusion based on observation, but on no other evidence. (It's the same as any observation about "talent" - which we don't want to get into here... )

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I can't count how many drummers (!) have lousy timing, changing tempo mid-song (mid measure!).

I guess your point is that one would expect drummers to be better at time-keeping than other musicians? Because they're the ones responsible for it?
As an old jazz tutor of mine used to say, everyone is equally responsible for the time. (In jazz, actually, it tends to be bass players who are the more overt time-keepers. In rock, true, the load tends to fall on the drummers.)

I have also known drummers who were irritatingly unreliable as time-keepers. But I wouldn't want to exaggerate. The count probably comes to three or four out of a total number of drummers - that I've played with - numbering maybe 30 or 40. Let's say roughly 10%. The other 90% vary in skill of course. The best ones are not machines, but reliable enough.)

While I agree with my jazz tutor that drummers have no more responsibility for time than the rest, it's when the drummers fail to keep time that the whole thing falls apart. If any other musician goes off, then they're the ones that look stupid. When a drummer does, the whole band sounds bad. Likewise, when you have a good drummer, it tends to make the whole band sound good.
Hence all the nasty drummer jokes, of course (made by other musicians), and the consequent chip on the shoulder that many drummers - even good ones - have. (All the drummers I've known seem to share that personality trait - very sensitive to being sidelined in musical discussions, especially to being told what to play! NEVER tell a drummer how he should play! )

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

The only thing I'd ever use a metronome for is to establish tempo. I think that's what the instructor in the OP was getting at.

Once your time is good, yes. The issue is: how do we develop a good sense of time? We can't all have the experience of playing in marching bands - or march around the stage when playing.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by JonPR

The issue is: how do we develop a good sense of time?

That's my point ... if one has NO sense of time, they might never develop it. Ask any band member who has played behind a lead singer with bad timing. It doesn't get much better over time.

I once read a post on another forum where the poster said (paraphrased) "we have great band, and a good drummer. However he has tempo and timing issues that we hope to work through". I nearly spit my coffee!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

That's my point ... if one has NO sense of time, they might never develop it.

Nobody has NO sense of time. Everyone's varies. The issue is, if a musician has a poor sense of musical time, is there any hope for them? I guess you're saying no.
That's a belief based on your personal experience. Not a very helpful observation in this topic.

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Ask any band member who has played behind a lead singer with bad timing. It doesn't get much better over time.

Because they don't address the issue. Maybe nobody tells them. Or maybe they don't care.
My belief - and you're welcome to disagree - is that it's not a black-and-white issue. We all have a "sense of time", but its natural form is flexible - dependent on mood and circumstances.
To become a performing musician, we need to train our sense of time to be more rigid, more clockwork. I agree with you that some people find this easier than others; a few get it straight away; and a few never seem to get it however hard they try.
But for the vast majority it's trainable - these are the people I'm interested in. (And I'm not sure anyone is totally untrainable; maybe they just haven't gone about it the right way?)
In a debate about how we train our sense of time, what good does it do to say some people have no sense of time? We can all have anecdotes of that kind, shaking our heads in despair at some crap player or singer. Lots of funny stories for sure. But they're a waste of space in a discussion like this. (We need a different thread entitled "crap musicians I have known" - which would probably be shut down by mods for being unnecessarily offensive! We'd have to fall back on the "musician jokes" threads... )

[love2play]

Originally Posted by A-Mac

I hate metronomes. After a couple of bars, they always get out of synch with my playing. One would think in this day and age we could build something that works.

That's priceless...

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Nobody has NO sense of time. Everyone's varies. The issue is, if a musician has a poor sense of musical time, is there any hope for them? I guess you're saying no.
That's a belief based on your personal experience. Not a very helpful observation in this topic.

Sorry to disappoint you. Of course I'm talking about musical timing, btw ... didn't think I needed to say so. I am definitely not in the "anyone can do it" camp. Some can't ... period. I guess I just can't relate to the tyro who struggles with it. Probably why I've never given any thought to becoming a guitar (or other music) teacher.

[SFCRetired]

I have never really used a metronome, I have one and did use it a little bit. They are useful when you are first learning and want to practice 1/8 and 1/16 notes. Or trying to build speed.