The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-22-2015, 03:41 PM
JosephW JosephW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 219
Default Trouble Getting in Tune

First, I don't have this problem with any other guitars of mine, but I have this little Alvarez travel guitar that simply will not get in tune.

I can use a Snark or use an app to match tones, and no matter how perfect the match is, as soon as I make a chord, it's not right. Seems to affect the D string most often, but can happen on other strings as well.

When turning the tuning peg, which is very stiff, sometimes there is a creaking sound. Can't exactly locate its origin.

What steps should I take to run down the cause of this? I've checked the neck relief per frets.com and it seems ok. The strings are new and the proper gauge. The guitar is a year old but only a month in my house. Humidity has been crazy lately, but ranges from 45-55%. But none of my other guitars is having a problem.

I don't expect much from this guy, it was a package deal and essentially free. But at least be tunable.

Next step: make sure the nut slots are not binding? Graphite the slots? The tuning gears are sealed, but maybe a touch of lube around the post?
Sorry for the long post, but wanted to give as much info as possible.
Thanks.
__________________
Alvarez MFA70
Taylor 514ce
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-22-2015, 04:22 PM
arie arie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephW View Post
When turning the tuning peg, which is very stiff, sometimes there is a creaking sound. Can't exactly locate its origin.
assuming you are turning your pegs into the backlash (tuning up to the note), after this creaking occurs, where is the pitch of that open note? is it high, low, or no change?

neck relief? -only related to action and intonation. would be an indicator of neck issues and other structural neck problems. but let's focus on the simple stuff first.

new strings and proper gauge? only a tuning issue when they are really old, or larger then the original nut was cut for.

when using the snark there is no "tone" to match (at least on my all instrument version) only a numerical value. you are either there or you are not.

crazy humidity? 45~55% is ideal.

again, focus on the simple stuff first. one thing at a time. i would investigate that creaking. is it coming from the peghead/nut area or the bridge?

Last edited by arie; 05-22-2015 at 04:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-22-2015, 05:38 PM
JosephW JosephW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 219
Default

I always tune up to the note.
I said Snark or an app, which does provide a tone.
Crazy humidity was referring to the fluctuation, not the absolute.
Sound seems more in the bridge area.
__________________
Alvarez MFA70
Taylor 514ce

Last edited by JosephW; 05-22-2015 at 05:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-22-2015, 05:47 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephW View Post
no matter how perfect the match is, as soon as I make a chord, it's not right. Seems to affect the D string most often, but can happen on other strings as well.
What you are describing sounds like poor intonation. On short scale, lower tension instruments, such as travel guitars, good intonation is more difficult to achieve.

If you are able to tune the instrument accurately to a standard (Snark or app), the sound that is made while tuning is incidental.

Using your tuner of choice, tune the open strings. Without retuning, see how accurate the 12th fret fretted notes are for each string. Ideally, use a tuner that measures in "cents", 1/100ths of a semi-tone. More than 4 cents discrepancy is fairly poor intonation. If that isn't the issue, you might also look to how much pressure you use when fretting notes: this becomes a bigger issue the lower the tension of the strings. shorter=lower tension, given the same strings.

There are other possibilities, but those are the most common and usually the place to start.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-22-2015, 06:02 PM
JosephW JosephW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 219
Default

Thank you, I'll check.
__________________
Alvarez MFA70
Taylor 514ce
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-23-2015, 01:05 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 3,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
What you are describing sounds like poor intonation. On short scale, lower tension instruments, such as travel guitars, good intonation is more difficult to achieve.

If you are able to tune the instrument accurately to a standard (Snark or app), the sound that is made while tuning is incidental.

Using your tuner of choice, tune the open strings. Without retuning, see how accurate the 12th fret fretted notes are for each string. Ideally, use a tuner that measures in "cents", 1/100ths of a semi-tone. More than 4 cents discrepancy is fairly poor intonation. If that isn't the issue, you might also look to how much pressure you use when fretting notes: this becomes a bigger issue the lower the tension of the strings. shorter=lower tension, given the same strings.

There are other possibilities, but those are the most common and usually the place to start.
Charles, any idea how silk/steel strings might work intonation wise on super short scale instruments...??

I don't see many travel guitars in my business (in fact, not even one has ever come in).
__________________
----

Ned Milburn
NSDCC Master Artisan
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-23-2015, 01:48 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Milburn View Post
Charles, any idea how silk/steel strings might work intonation wise on super short scale instruments...??
Probably not a very good choice.

Brook Taylor's string equation (http://www.sligoharps.com/string.html) shows that string tension is proportional to the square of the vibrating string length. In short, 1/2 the string length and the string tension is reduced to 1/4.

For a given string and pitch, the tension on the string reduces as the string length reduces. As the string tension drops, the strings are more easily inadvertently stretched by over-depressing them between frets or bending them side to side. Consistent fretting pressure and direction takes-on an increasing role in the instrument playing in tune.

If, in addition to that, one uses strings that are "low-tension" to begin with, the situation is exacerbated. Also, the lower the tension of the strings, the more saddle compensation is required, exacerbated further still by short, low tension strings requiring a higher action prior to buzzing. Unless the instrument was designed and built with that in mind, chances are good that the saddle thickness and placement won't allow adequate compensation.

Renaissance lutes are often a 600 mm (short) scale length, but strings are usually individually selected to produce a targeted tension per string based on common tunings.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-23-2015, 02:53 PM
JosephW JosephW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 219
Default

I tested for intonation. All the strings showed some minor variations, 1-2 cents, but the D string showed about 3-4. The unwound strings were slightly flat, the wound slightly sharp.

I emailed St. Louis Music about the string gauge for this guitar and he responded that they were 12-53. This kind of surprised me, I thought the shorter scale would have taken medium like 13-56. I measured the original strings though, and 12-53 was what they had on it.

So, the best solution is to find a happy place where the strings all sound generally in tune? Use a medium gauge?

The scale on this guitar, btw, is 23.6".
__________________
Alvarez MFA70
Taylor 514ce
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-23-2015, 03:47 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephW View Post
So, the best solution is to find a happy place where the strings all sound generally in tune? Use a medium gauge?
The best solution is to decide what strings you like best on that instrument and then have it setup for those strings.

Have the saddle compensated as much as the saddle position and width will accommodate to get it closer to "zero" cents out. The nut could also be involved, but for most situations, with most players, saddle compensation is sufficient.

That you stated you don't have a problem with any of your other guitars suggests that it is not a temperament problem, but an intonation problem specific to this instrument.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-23-2015, 04:07 PM
JosephW JosephW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Western Montana
Posts: 219
Default

Thank you, Charles. I'll go with that.
__________________
Alvarez MFA70
Taylor 514ce
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Build and Repair

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=