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  #16  
Old 03-22-2013, 05:11 PM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
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I've recently become interested in acoustic archtops, mainly because i love the sound of Dave Rawlings' Epiphone Olympic. I would love to have a guitar that sounds like that. It appears to me that most archtop players use them for jazz, which I don't care for. I have a hard time finding youtube videos or information in general on archtops used for flatpicking of bluegrass, alt country or Americana.

If you have thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them.
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  #17  
Old 03-22-2013, 09:41 PM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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Originally Posted by WordMan View Post
I love that CD - the tracks where Lang and Kress play together are just monstrously good. Lang, before Charlie Christian and others, really brought the guitar to the front of the band and deserves a lot more recognition.

I played two round-hold L-50's at RetroFret in Brooklyn a week ago - fun guitars. I also played their L-48 and L-50. I have always circled archtops and would love to sound decent on one. I think I may have found one that is perfect for me, but am working out the particulars. If I can make it work, I will post about it here or in a new thread
Guess where I was when I played the round hole? The one with the re-contoured neck sounds better to me.

Get one of them; I'm working out particulars myself, but there are two of them...
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  #18  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:41 PM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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Well, I know that Maybelle Carter used a Gibson L5. Merle Travis used a Gibson Super 400. As far as bluegrass flatpicking goes, I don't know of anyone who's made it their primary instrument. There are links up-thread to check out that sound VERY intriguing (thanks for posting those!) that may be useful to you. And there are other YouTube links that I'll try to find.

I see no reason why it can't be done. I count myself a jazz player, but I've sat in on bluegrass jams and flailed my through. People told me they liked the tone when I flatpicked.

I'll note that the early jazz players - Eddie Lang especially - weren't playing jazz in the "ES 175 with treble turned down through a Polytone amp" sound or songs that most people hear when someone mentions "jazz guitar". I'll try to dig some links on Lang as well. And Jerry Garcia did the "Garcia/Grisman" album back in the '90s. Garcia used a Super 400 on that album, which is filled with Americana and blues.

Last edited by L50EF15; 03-22-2013 at 10:42 PM. Reason: correction
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  #19  
Old 03-22-2013, 11:15 PM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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Note the intro by Lang here. Mind, he played an .018 high E as I recall...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...dHBM0AR20&NR=1
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  #20  
Old 03-22-2013, 11:17 PM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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Originally Posted by bohemian View Post
I like and play archtops.

I had an L-50 back around 1964.. liked it very much and regret the sale.

Archtops are underappreciated, often because they are played differently than flattops.. and few folks spend enough time with them to get familiar.

I think they are more elegant and versatile than flattops.

Have you visted archtops.com ?
Oh yes. A den of temptation, that site.
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  #21  
Old 03-23-2013, 06:15 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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My recently acquired archtop is a 1974 Gibson Johnny Smith. This guitar has a shorter 25" scale and a 1 3/4" nut, so transitioning between it and my acoustic is not difficult. Also, this instrument was designed with acoustic properties in mind, so it has X bracing, more typical of an acoustic than an archtop and two floating pickups so as not to deaden the top, and playing unplugged sounds quite nice and woody. For chord melody and certain other styles, the archtop is ideal. For the fingerstyle playing prevalent in these forums, not so much. I prefer that "smokey late night" ballad solo guitar playing, and this guitar through my Henriksen amp is perfect for that.

It seems to me that there is at least as much variability across the range of available archtops as there is across the acoustic (flattop) realm. It all depends on what you want - longer/shorter scale, narrower/wider nut, 1/2/3/none pickups, decent unamplified tone or built for higher volume playing, body depth and size, 1/2/none cutaways, etc. The range of prices is quite wide, with the lower priced instruments really coming up in build quality these days. It is a good time to buy an archtop, except that the "vintage" models continue to go up in price, as do the acoustics in that area as well. My Johnny Smith wasn't cheap, but as long as you have other instruments to sell, it can be done with minimal cost.

One thing I will add is that chord melody is really an enjoyable musical pasttime. The tunes in that repertoire, the standards, are very well written, with strong melodies, beautiful harmony, and wonderful lyrics. Many of us who grew up in the 60s and later either caught the tail end of that era or missed out altogether and would have to seek out this music and educate ourselves, but once you "get it", you are hooked. Look for vocalists such as Ella Fitzgerald (her "Songbooks" series can be had as a CD box set that spans quite a bit of that repertoire with beautiful delivery), Billie Holiday, Frank Sinatra, and many others. To hear how chord melody can be handled, listen to the likes of Joe Pass, Johnny Smith, George Van Eps, Ted Greene, and others. You can spend hours playing these tunes from the Real Boooks, experimenting with different ways to harmonize the melodies, and be playing high quality material. Archtops are great for this.

Tony

Last edited by tbeltrans; 03-23-2013 at 06:22 AM.
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  #22  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:25 PM
WordMan WordMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L50EF15 View Post
Guess where I was when I played the round hole? The one with the re-contoured neck sounds better to me.

Get one of them; I'm working out particulars myself, but there are two of them...
Enjoy and best of luck on getting it. I am working on something different - I liked those round-holes, but they ultimately aren't for me.

tbeltrans everything you say is true, both about the spectrum of archtops and the appeal of chord melody - listening to Carl Kress on the CD mentioned above is a mind-blower. That feels to far out in front of me; for now I am just looking at Freddie Green comping, stretching out my chords a bit, and, per the discussion above, exploring slide on the right kind of archtop.
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  #23  
Old 03-23-2013, 06:20 PM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertTwang View Post
I've recently become interested in acoustic archtops, mainly because i love the sound of Dave Rawlings' Epiphone Olympic. I would love to have a guitar that sounds like that. It appears to me that most archtop players use them for jazz, which I don't care for. I have a hard time finding youtube videos or information in general on archtops used for flatpicking of bluegrass, alt country or Americana.

If you have thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them.
Thank you prodding me to listen Welch and Rawlings! I had heard of Gillian, but had (knowingly) heard any of her stuff. Now I have new CDs to buy.

Watching and hearing the clips, it's clear to me that a small body archtop (the sub-"16 models that are less well-known than an L5 or even an L50) is likely to get you nearest to the sound you're seeking. Track down an old Harmony Monterey. It's an excellent instrument if you can find one in good shape. Crisp, but with some nice warm woodiness, too. I've had two of them over the years. I should probably get another. It covers the small flattop sound for me.

Here's YouTube clip. Search "Harmony Monterey" and you'll get others. There used to be a very good website on vintage Harmony instruments, so you may find that out there as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkIv3ULvsJE

The small round and oval hole Gibson archtops may also suit you, the original versions of the L1, L2 and L3, not the flattop versions of few years later.

Hope this helps!
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  #24  
Old 03-23-2013, 07:03 PM
upsidedown upsidedown is offline
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The only thing keeping me from having an archtop (still), is that every time I changed the strings, I had to go to anger management counseling.

I'm thinking of looking for another though, and acquiring a new skill and a batch of patience in my old age.
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  #25  
Old 03-24-2013, 03:49 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Originally Posted by upsidedown View Post
The only thing keeping me from having an archtop (still), is that every time I changed the strings, I had to go to anger management counseling.

I'm thinking of looking for another though, and acquiring a new skill and a batch of patience in my old age.
<sigh>

Change one at a time.

HE
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  #26  
Old 03-25-2013, 01:59 PM
Archtop Guy Archtop Guy is offline
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I've admired archtops forever but only in the last few years have I played them exclusively. Like others say above, they are an acquired taste and they are extremely versatile guitars. Many people decide they don't like them based on bad data, like only having played a ply version, or perhaps just thinking that all acoustic guitars should sound like a D-28.

There are some sound clips of acoustic archtops on my website and my YouTube channel. I'm not a pro, so please be forgiving!
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  #27  
Old 03-25-2013, 02:18 PM
WordMan WordMan is offline
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Please help this archtop noob: why are ply tops considered so differently? Semi Hollows like 335's are usually laminated. And aren't ES-175's laminated?

I must confess, I am currently spending time with a guitar I can't quite call my own - long story, but a deal is in play. The guitar is a 1938 Gibson-made Kalamazoo KG-31. About the equivalent of a Gibson L-48 but with no truss rod.

This thing is light as a feather and plays and sounds just great. It is strummable, does (my limited version of) Freddie Green grooves with a sharp archtop bounce, and per my discussion with Howard above, it sounds amazing in Open G for slide. It has X-Bracing, and I can't seem to put it down. It gives me so much feedback - it has really taught me how to tighten up my slide work in no time; same with four-to-the-bar grooves. But it is a ply-top - to be clear: I don't care. I love playing it. But I would appreciate to know more about the "rules of thumb" related to ply vs. solid for archtops...

Sure, it's old and has been play a lot. But it beat out a few other, pricier archie's when I stumbled across it. It may be the exception...
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Last edited by WordMan; 03-25-2013 at 03:55 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-25-2013, 06:53 PM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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WordMan - I once had an ES 125TC - essentially, a thinline ES 175 - and it had a very nice acoustic sound, if a bit on the open and "jangly" end of the spectrum. And if I'm not totally mistaken, Joe Pass played an unplugged, laminated '175 on "Virtuoso".

In master luthier Bob Benedetto's book, "Making An Archtop Guitar," he stresses that excellent instruments have been made from so-called "inferior" woods for centuries. He gives an example (with photo) of an archtop made with "construction grade" pine. As Benedetto makes clear, it is the way the materials are used, the execution of the design and the care with which the instrument is built, that make the difference between an instrument that's very satisfying and inspiring to play and one that's less so.

To my ear, there is a difference between carved and laminated or pressed tops, but a good laminated top still gives a wonderful sound. I think a carved top gives a stronger fundamental (again, subjective opinion) than a laminated top, which seems to emphasize the higher overtones: I hear laminated and pressed tops as a "stringier" sound. Saying that, I've never played an archtop I didn't like the sound of. For straight acoustic models, I've also owned two Harmony Montereys, and very nearly bought a vintage Martin "R" model.

I dunno. I guess it's similar to the solid top/laminated top debate among flattop players.
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  #29  
Old 03-25-2013, 07:24 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is online now
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pass's tone is horrible on the first virtuoso....it was supposed to be a mix of unplugged 175 and plugged in tone but the engineer screwed up.

Arch tops are either intended to be acoustic (with the possibility of being amplified, maybe) or electric...the 175 is very much an electric guitar.
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  #30  
Old 03-26-2013, 12:35 AM
L50EF15 L50EF15 is offline
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Thanks for the info on the first Virtuoso album. I've always wondered why he chose a 175 over a proper acoustic, and why I can only hear the pickup on one tune on that record. I agree completely on the acoustic/electric thing. The point I was trying to make was that for all that it was otherwise unsuitable, it was a passable acoustic sound - very stringy though, and certainly it didn't play to the 175's strengths or sound like an L4C!

Note: I played an L4C recently at Mandolin Brothers. Carved top, no pickup and that thing sustained like a church a bell. Such a gorgeous warm and woody tone.

Now that I think about it more, your observation on the 175 fits with what I was trying to say about the "laminated tone," albeit with the recognition the fact that a pickup hole is cut into the top does come into play with that particular instrument. If I recall correctly, the 175 was intended to be a laminated and electrified L4C. If so, I think the laminated top would have been chosen not only as being less expensive to produce, but as more resistant to feedback through cutting down on the long-ringing fundamentals that a carved top produces, by having a top that vibrates less strongly.

An L48 (or any all-acoustic laminate) is a far better sounding instrument than any unplugged 175 or even an unplugged L4 CES.
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