Abnormal resonances

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Me&MyGuitar

No! he did not install new frets.

.
The owner said he liked bass wire on his guitars, so I installed huge bass wire in an attempt to eliminate the problem. I was skeptical, but after installing the larger wire, the noise was greatly reduced. It was still there if the player wasn't careful, but it was manageable.

How else did he "install" huge bass wire if not to remove the existing frets and replace them with a different, new fret wire?

Do you know how frets are installed?

[Me&MyGuitar]

Ooops...wait a minute....do you mean he installed fretbars for bass guitar?!!
If so I wrongly assumed that he had used higher gauge bass wounded strings...Sorry for the misunderstanding, I could not even imagine bass frets on an acoustic nylon stringed guitar.
If so he would have solved the puzzle simply putting a very high obstacle to the progression of the vibration of the string....

[Ned Milburn]

I am inextricably puzzled. From your long quote:

"The strings had so much amplitude that the strings would accelerate right off the fret,"

This STILL comes down to poor technique. I have had HUNDREDS of guitars in my hands, of ALL sorts and all calibre. If the string is "accelerating right off the fret", it means there is not enough pressure in the fretting hand. Or, as Charles suggested, there could have been a loose fret. But now we are discussing diagnosing a guitar that doesn't exist in your hands or the hands of any of us commenting.

The author who you quoted is also not clear what he is talking about with "bass wire".

I too, just like Charles, assumed you meant bass fret wire. Even though you cannot imagine bass fretwire on a nylon string guitar, I have clients who prefer jumbo fret wire on nylon string. Preferred fret wire is based upon players' preferences.

I really don't get it when you state: "If so he would have solved the puzzle simply putting a very high obstacle to the progression of the vibration of the string...."

[D. Churchland]

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that until you put up a video/photo/brand name. Literally anything to help us identify the instrument in question literally none of this information will do you any good.

Like Ned, your statements are a little confusing to me. Also like Ned I have had literally hundreds of guitars come across my bench with "mystery" noise issues. A massive percentage of those instrument's noise is due to player technique.

I already stated before, if you are playing this guitar in the same fashion that you are playing in your videos I can completely see why you get some noise. This video is taken directly from the link you provide in your signature which I'm going to assume is your youtube channel since the name matches.



Pause the video at these locations and look at where you're fretting. You tend to play in between the frets and especially at 1:17 your fingers are WAY behind the frets.

0:18
0:20
0:27
0:54
1:17

There's more but what I want you to see is that the issue at this point that you're describing is your technique. The guitar cannot be at fault for something that the player is doing.

[Me&MyGuitar]

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

...what I want you to see is that the issue at this point that you're describing is your technique. The guitar cannot be at fault for something that the player is doing.

That is a baritone, one of my other 5 guitars; and just like the other 4, played in the same way by the same player, it has no-buzz-at-all. The player is doing exactly what he did for over 40 years with many guitars, with no buzz.
Many guitars, same playing technique, no buzz, that's a fact. New guitar, new buzz, that's a fact. Now please tell me who could play fingerstyle on a crossover 47 millimeters wide fretboard fingering all the tones and chords just close to the fretbars on any string.

The guitar is still at the luthier's lab. For now I can give the link to some pictures of the building of the crossover we're talking about:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=e8c4cecd8c

[D. Churchland]

Originally Posted by Me&MyGuitar

That is a baritone, one of my other 5 guitars; and just like the other 4, played in the same way by the same player, it has no-buzz-at-all. The player is doing exactly what he did for over 40 years with many guitars, with no buzz.
Many guitars, same playing technique, no buzz, that's a fact. New guitar, new buzz, that's a fact. Now please tell me who could play fingerstyle on a crossover 47 millimeters wide fretboard fingering all the tones and chords just close to the fretbars on any string.

No two guitars are exactly the same. You can have the exact same maker, the same woods cut from the same tree, the same frets, strings, setup etc... And they will still be slightly different from each other. How your other guitars play means nothing at this point because they are not this guitar.

I get requests all the time (daily in fact) at my shop with folks asking me "Can you make my strat play like my Les Paul?" or "Can you make my acoustic play like my electric?" or "Can you make my classical play like my crossover?" And the answer is no. Why? Because there are differences that simply make it impossible to make them play identical to each other, there will always be subtle differences in each and every guitar. Part of being a player is learning to appreciate those differences and make the most of them. My response usually is "The only thing that will play like your les paul, is that les paul"

You really need to consider the fact that it doesn't matter how long you've been playing, what matters is that according to what you're telling us here, the way you play simply doesn't seem to be working on this guitar.

The fact that you seem to be avoiding putting a video up of yourself playing it gives me some pause, if you did that I can almost say for certain that someone on here will notice what's wrong.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Me&MyGuitar

That is a baritone, one of my other 5 guitars; and just like the other 4, played in the same way by the same player, it has no-buzz-at-all. The player is doing exactly what he did for over 40 years with many guitars, with no buzz.

Are the other 5 all steel strings?

Nylon strings behave differently, and require different technique than steel strings.

[BrickGlass]

All you folks giving the op grief about it being his technique need to zip it. It is absolutely not his technique. It is NOT the kind of buzz you get if you are in the middle of the fret and not pushing hard enough. No, this is an unholy demon level buzz. I'm the one who started the other thread about this problem three years ago. Understand that this is not just your normal buzzing. It is almost as if a secondary note comes through. The Paul Mcgill article is a perfect illustration of the problem. As the article states, if you move even 1/8 of an inch from the fret this problem can appear. There is no way in all hell that every single finger on every single chord can be played 1/8 of an inch or less from the fret. The op does not sound like a noob when it comes to guitar, I'm not either. I teach guitar all day every day, have taught almost 40,000 lessons, do repairs and setups on the side, etc., this problem is as strange as they come. What Mcgill says is correct. The note just "accelerates" off the fret, almost as if it is oscillating too rapidly or something. I was driven mad by this problem on a Cervantes Crossover. Had it worked on by the best repair guys around. Never got solved and ended up sending the guitar back after many weeks of trying everything we could think of. Bought a Kenny Hill and no issues.

It was literally the most frustrating problem I've ever had on a guitar in my 25 years of playing. I have owned dozens of guitars, but none had such a problem as this Cervantes. I've had back buzz problems, fret buzz, etc., and I always was able to fix those issues, but the demon buzz defeated me and was never solved. **** shame too because the Cervantes felt great.

[mirwa]

It is extremely difficult to diagnose a problem by a forum, with the limited information given, repairers and players can just give an opinion.

That opinion can be absolutely spot on the money or way way off, its likely somewhere in between.

In the hands of possibly 90 percent of the repliers here, the problem could be solved in minutes of actually handling the guitar and working with you the player, but without that, its just an educated guess.

If the string is vibrating against the fret adjacent to the finger, then IMO it's a loose fret, or as mentioned technique, this is solely going by the description given.

Steve

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by BrickGlass

All you folks giving the op grief about it being his technique need to zip it.

We need to zip it, do we...??

So, when people have questions and we try to help, you are suggesting we no longer try to help...??

It has been stated a few times already that the OP, if he truly wants to dig into this issue further with our knowledge database of forum members, should post a video. No song is necessary. Just notes. With, and without the buzz that YOU have positively determined as being NOT an issue of fretting technique.

Until your post, even though the OP has expressed himself with exasperation, there has not been a strongly adversarial tone. Your post has been the only one that shows a directly confrontational/adversarial tone. This tone is unnecessary.

For my part, next time you want to tell me to zip it, kindly keep it off the forum and please pick up the phone and give me a call.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Me&MyGuitar

Of course it is nylon stringed. But give that a crossover guitar is not a steel and not a classical, it is supposed to be played in "crossover" way, not just as a classical. IMHO it is quite absurd to state that any crossover nylon guitar if not played like a classical has such a problem.
I just found out that this issue was discussed in a previous thread in this forum in 2013
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=286696

Re-reading...

BTW - What is your idea of a "crossover way" of playing, in comparison to a "classical" way of playing? And for that matter, what is your idea of the difference between nylon string guitar technique versus steel string guitar technique (especially considering the left hand)?

Sure, in different styles of music there are different added techniques (take flamenco, for example, or take string bending for another example). But left hand fretting technique basics are the same no matter what style music is played on any type of guitar - steel string acoustic, electric, flamenco, classical, etc...

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by BrickGlass

No, this is an unholy demon level buzz.

. . . the demon buzz defeated me and was never solved.

I'm afraid this issue goes beyond the expertise of this forum. Here's what it calls for:

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by BrickGlass

All you folks giving the op grief about it being his technique need to zip it. It is absolutely not his technique.

How did you determine this? Did the OP send you an audio or video file that allowed you to determine his problem was the same as the one you encountered?

I'll ask the OP one more time, is this the only nylon string guitar with which you have any experience? You have already said that fretting close to the fret solves the problem.

Originally Posted by Me&MyGuitar

The description of the phenomenon by BrickGlass back in 2013 is very very close to what happens on my guitar, believe it or not. In my experience the buzz (I still prefer to call it "the parasite tone") disappears when the finger depresses the string "just close" to the fret; I don't see a significative difference from "right on top" of the fret, when the direct effect is in both ways that of dampening the vibration of the string and preventing its jumping over the fret.

For now thank you again for your contributions.

The bold describes proper technique, which eliminates the problem.

The significance of the red is that proper technique(just close) does not eliminate the buzz described by Brickglass, but it does eliminate yours.

I haven't see enough information to determine if it's the guitar or the technique. It could be a combination of a very responsive guitar requiring very good technique in the hands of a steel string player that isn't familiar with the requirements of good technique for nylon strings.

It may be a crossover, but nylon strings will play like nylon strings, not something in between.

[Me&MyGuitar]

[QUOTE=Rodger Knox;5050574]... is this the only nylon string guitar with which you have any experience? You have already said that fretting close to the fret solves the problem.

no, I had a similar crossover time ago and had no problems at all.

It could be a combination of a very responsive guitar requiring very good technique in the hands of a steel string player that isn't familiar with the requirements of good technique for nylon strings

.

that's reasonable, but a nylon crossover isn't meant and built to be played as a classical guitar; it is quite impossible, as BrickGlass said too, to play every note and chord fingering always close to the fret. The next step is understanding what can be done to fix/reduce the buzz/parasite tone.

It may be a crossover, but nylon strings will play like nylon strings, not something in between

Assumed that, keep in mind that BrickGlass changed guitar and solved the problem. We should agree that nylon stringed crossover guitars do exist and do sound well even played by self taught guitarists without any conservatory training.

[Alan Carruth]

Although it certainly would be nice to have some more data on this, I do think we have enough to go on to give some useful advice. Much has already been given.

Strings are strings. There are some differences between steel and nylon, of course, but from my own measurements of the forces on the bridge/fret top those differences don't really bear on this problem, IMO.

The purpose of the frets and the saddle are primarily to 'tell' the string how long it is, so that it 'knows' what note to make. In this case the message is not getting across to the string. I don't think it's likely that the problem is at the bridge end. The top could moving enough at that end to be a problem, but in general that would only happen at one resonant frequency of the top: there would be one 'wolf' note, not a bunch of notes. In that case it would not show up as a 'phantom tone', but probably more like the usual 'thuddy G'. If there IS a 'phantom tone' at one pitch, it's most likely caused by a strong couple between the top and (most likely) the back or the air, but that's really rare. If the top moves enough to be a problem at a wide range of pitches I'd suspect it of not being structurally sound, and that would probably be obvious. Since it has not been mentioned I don't think that's the case.

Similarly, it doesn't look as though the string is 'rolling' or 'hopping' at the bridge end. If that were happening playing on the fret would not help.

It's probable, then, that the string is moving at the fret end, either 'rolling' across the fret or 'hopping' off it vertically, or the frets are loose. This fits with the fact that playing on the fret stops the problem. Although I mentioned rolling at first, I now don't think that's the issue. The only documentation I've seen on this says that the pitch difference between the two polarizations of motion is very small; about what you'd get by changing the string length by the width of the fret. This would show up as a slow 'beat' in the tone, not as a phantom pitch.

It's possible that there are loose frets. That is easy enough to check. If that's not the issue then we're left with hopping.

If that's the case then higher frets should help if a technique change is not possible. The experiment with a high fret crown held in between the frets may not have been a good indicator, since it would be hard to hold the piece of wire down hard enough to be certain of eliminating all motion in the wire in both directions. You might do it wit CA, but that was not mentioned.

It would be interesting to try tying on a fret or two to see what would happen. If the existing frets are lower than the diameter of a heavy gauge nylon G string that could be used. I'd tie the fret just below, say, the second fret, and then push it down so that it's against the third. That way you'd know it was tight. The pitch would be a bit off, of course, but normal playing would tell you whether the problem was reduced or eliminated by the higher fret.

I have to wonder if a 'fast' neck with low frets was part of the spec here. I had a nice discussion about low frets recently with a student of mine who plays a wide range of guitars and lutes. He said that low frets can be a real advantage in some cases, particularly with intonation, but that they put a premium on left hand technique.

It would be interesting to get that guitar on the bench. I can think of a number of tests that could be run with the equipment I have that might help illuminate this problem. OTOH, this stuff takes a lot of time, but, come to think of it, so does typing out long responses on line...