Adirondack Spruce - I Don't Get It

[dneal]

Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19

I have no doubt that an individual luthier could make a certain top sing. They're not constrained with warranties so they can brace them and thin them out to any degree they see fit. I'll probably find an Adi guitar that I like. Perhaps the moral of this topic is to heed caution around manufacturer Adirondack guitars.

I'd argue that they're even more constrained by warrantees. Time an individual luthier takes to make good on a warranty claim is time out of another build.

It sounds as if your friend spent time researching specs, which is fine; but not enough time researching builders. Collings makes great guitars, but they wouldn't be the first brand I'd recommend for a finger stylist expanding to steel strings. I think you'll find their builds with other spruces just as "tight" as the adirondack topped one your friend has. Again, not a knock on Collings but an acknowledgement of the tonal characteristics of their guitars.

[vintageom]

I have owned and still own several Collings guitars. The ones I still have have Sitka and German spruce tops. I sold the ones with Red Spruce tops. For my playing style, I prefer the German and Sitka with "ADi braces" on my particular models. (D2HG and D1VN and an OM2H) To my ear, the way Collings builds them and the way I play, the Sitka and German work best. SO many variables besides the tops. Body shape, B/S material, bracing patterns, on and on and on.

I like the Red Spruce top on my D-18GE. I also like the Red Spruce on my Bourgeois Vintage OM. One has EIR and the other Mahogany B/S. Also, different body shapes and bracing. I love the Sitka top on my Martin HD-28V.

Each guitar is unique gives me the variety I want.

I have found that if you buy by specs and not by tone and playability, you can easily be disappointed. By what suits your ears, and the sound you prefer. Different tools for different applications.

[mstuartev]

Originally Posted by amyFB

I don't follow your logic path to the conclusion you 'reckon'.

Is it the age of the Adi that you think will make a difference?
Or the fact that Martin selected the Adi used?

good luck!

If it takes years to break in Adirondack, and a guitar is 70 years old... Then it follows that it will sound better, looser. And Martin? Well, I 'reckon' it could be any guitar from the 30's or up til, say... Oh... 1989?

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by Raine M

I don't follow your path of logic.



If not playing for three months will "tighten up" the guitar, you are suggesting if a guitar can open up, it can also tighten up.



So following from your logic, a prewar Martin that has not been played can have its "opening up" process reversed.

Yes that is my experience with my Breedlove.

Ymmv



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19

I think I'm going to need to summarize my original post and some additional details.

The Adirondack topped guitars that I've played, Taylor, Martin and Collings, seem overtly stiff in terms of response and tonal color. As someone else on this topic has pointed out, Adirondack is considered an upgrade. If, to my ears, they don't sound as good as people claim it to be, I think there's something wrong with the picture. Besides, how can a different soundboard ever be considered an upgrade? We all have different ears and tastes, so this "upgrade" mentality is what is really bothering me.

As for my friend, he wanted a steel string guitar that played and felt like a classical guitar. He got the body style, scale length and dimensions to meet that desire, but he couldn't decide on a top. Collings suggested that he "go all the way" with Adirondack because it was a good investment. Now, coming from a classical background, us nylon stringers like a top that responds well to a light touch with deep bass and sparkling trebles. I feel Engelmann or German spruce would've satisfied that desire far more than a traditional steel string top. Instead, my friend bought into Collings's advise and got a guitar that sounded a little disappointing to his ears.

That's what this is about.

Much ado about nothing......sorry

I'll put you in a room full of very high end Martins, every one with a different top, and let you pick out the "disappointing" Adirondack top. You won't be able to....

Because you don't "get Adi" only applies to you, doesn't make it universal or say anything about what others may or may not prefer.

I make a point to have different woods with my Martins, at one time I had 5 Martins with 10 different woods for a few years. My lesson learned is there are no holy grail woods, including Brazilian, but many very good tone woods and the builder takes it from there.....

[Vinyl_Record19]

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

Much ado about nothing......sorry

I'll put you in a room full of very high end Martins, every one with a different top, and let you pick out the "disappointing" Adirondack top. You won't be able to....

Because you don't "get Adi" only applies to you, doesn't make it universal or say anything about what others may or may not prefer.

I make a point to have different woods with my Martins, at one time I had 5 Martins with 10 different woods for a few years. My lesson learned is there are no holy grail woods, including Brazilian, but many very good tone woods and the builder takes it from there.....

Yes, I'm fully aware this applies to me. Life is all about perception from a single point of reference. This is why worded it, "I don't get it". I didn't use the subjective as objective fallacy because I was hoping for the subject of Adirondack to be elucidated from other people.

I also understand why a topic like this would make people so upset. Is there an Adirondack guitar out there that I would like? More than likely because there are 100's of thousands of guitars out there. Have I found it yet? Not quite. I've played Redwood, Cedar, European, Engelmann and Sitka tops that added color to my playing and I'm obviously going to gravitate towards some more than others.

Unfortunately, Adirondack has yet to capture my ear. Do I hate Adirondack itself? No. What I really hate is how guitar companies see it as a premium upgrade when Sitka spruce and Adirondack are completely different woods.

[Watt]

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

Much ado about nothing......sorry

I'll put you in a room full of very high end Martins, every one with a different top, and let you pick out the "disappointing" Adirondack top. You won't be able to....

Because you don't "get Adi" only applies to you, doesn't make it universal or say anything about what others may or may not prefer.

I make a point to have different woods with my Martins, at one time I had 5 Martins with 10 different woods for a few years. My lesson learned is there are no holy grail woods, including Brazilian, but many very good tone woods and the builder takes it from there.....

I agree, but I think that the OP's focus on Adirondack as the culprit is entirely misplaced. If I were looking to purchase a steel-string guitar with the characteristics of a high-end classical guitar, Collings, Martin, etc., wouldn't be be likely candidates. I'm not suggesting that you can't play a Collings or a Martin delicately, with bare fingers and fingernails. My 00-18 (long-scale with an Adirondack top) sounds very nice, no matter the playing style. But my Avalon responds better to a lighter touch. Unlike the Martin, however, if you dig into it with a heavy pick, things get messy. (FWIW, I am primarily a classical player.)

[Vinceletah]

I do love Sitka and my 2 guitars are Sitka guitars. I also feel many Adi top I have heard on Youtube Reviews sounding "harsh", and wasn't impressed with the very few I played (3 or 4)!
But i will keep from judging every single adi top guitar on the planet for that, it is ridiculous.

The guitar in the following link sounds just amazing and it's an adirondack top!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YPc...O9vtlYkGx4ZBsQ

[Guitarsan]

Four pages so far and no one has even mentioned a major attribute of Adi - responsiveness. Because of it's springy nature, you can easily detect a sharper attack when a string is plucked or struck. This is especially true of Adi bracing - in fact you can get roughly 80% of the impact through bracing alone.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by Vinceletah

The guitar in the following link sounds just amazing and it's an adirondack top!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YPc...O9vtlYkGx4ZBsQ

It does have a bit of darkness around the edges, however.

[FrankS]

Originally Posted by Guitarsan

Four pages so far and no one has even mentioned a major attribute of Adi - responsiveness. Because of it's springy nature, you can easily detect a sharper attack when a string is plucked or struck. This is especially true of Adi bracing - in fact you can get roughly 80% of the impact through bracing alone.

Exactly. In a word, headroom. You can play them soft but you can also drive them and almost never get to the top.

Of course some builders build too heavy or to tympanic in sound but it is a good wood. For finger style or a light touch with a pick, the other woods mentioned are great choices but in the hands of the right builder adi is a great wood.

Frank Sanns

[Vinyl_Record19]

Originally Posted by Guitarsan

Four pages so far and no one has even mentioned a major attribute of Adi - responsiveness. Because of it's springy nature, you can easily detect a sharper attack when a string is plucked or struck. This is especially true of Adi bracing - in fact you can get roughly 80% of the impact through bracing alone.

Sharpness is not really a quality that a classical guitar player would want in a steel string though. If I was in his situation, I'd want to go for deep and round. The classical guitar he owned before the Collings was an Alhambra 11P. Here's a visual representation:



To use your springboard analogy, classical guitar players typically like their tops to be more like trampolines; almost like you can feel it moving up and down. I know the tension of a steel string mitigates that affect, but his intention was for the Collings to sound and feel as close to a classical guitar as possible. Adirondack and Sitka spruce are not usually used for classical guitar because they're too dense. So with that information, a softer top should of been used.

[justonwo]

I've played Adi guitars that are subtle and responsive. In fact, I own one. I don't think the attributes you assign to Adi are universally true. Collings is building steel string guitars in the Martin tradition. If your friend wanted a steel string with a classical feel, I'm not sure that was the right place to look. Though honestly, it's hard for me to envision what that sound is supposed to be like. It was probably hard for Collings to envision as well.

Adi can be so sweet and responsive (and powerful and thunderous if you want it to be). If you want an x-braced steel string guitar to have the feel of a fan braced nylon guitar I think you have to worry about a lot more than just the species of spruce. If he doesn't like the tone of the Collings, it's more than likely not related to the spruce species.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Vinyl_Record19

Sharpness is not really a quality that a classical guitar player would want in a steel string though. If I was in his situation, I'd want to go for deep and round. The classical guitar he owned before the Collings was an Alhambra 11P. Here's a visual representation:



To use your springboard analogy, classical guitar players typically like their tops to be more like trampolines; almost like you can feel it moving up and down. I know the tension of a steel string mitigates that affect, but his intention was for the Collings to sound and feel as close to a classical guitar as possible. Adirondack and Sitka spruce are not usually used for classical guitar because they're too dense. So with that information, a softer top should of been used.

I think that springboard effect probably has a lot to do with the fan brace vs the x brace. Also, remember that steel strings are under much greater tension than nylon so you will necessarily want a stiffer top.

[Vinyl_Record19]

Originally Posted by justonwo

If he doesn't like the tone of the Collings, it's more than likely not related to the spruce species.

It could of been both the Collings and the way the top was voiced.

I think that springboard effect probably has a lot to do with the fan brace vs the x brace. Also, remember that steel strings are under much greater tension than nylon so you will necessarily want a stiffer top.

Yes, that's why he was trying to get it as close as possible. An X-braced steel string guitar is never going to sound a like a classical, like you said. However, a top with a lower density would of inched him just a little bit closer to that desire.