2 piece or 3 piece back???

[davidlim88]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and I must say that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the messages posted by this community. Thanks everyone for sharing all the valuable info, advice and opinions.

I am a 714 owner (cedar top, no C no E) and I am contemplating taking a splash for a 814 BC or 914 BC, assuming I can find one. I have seen a few on eBay recently but there has always been a question that has bugged me : is there a tonal difference between a 3 piece vs 2 piece back or is it just a design/taste thing? I can't understand why some models come with 2 and some with 3 piece backs. Is it a function of the size/cut of the woods that Taylor manages to obtain or are there other considerations.

Would appreciate if someone could throw some light on this question for me.

Thanks

[jmintzer]

I don't think there is a big difference. Some point to the Martin D-35 (with a 3 piece back) and comment on it's increased bass response, but that is really due to the different top bracing that the guitar has, not the back. YMMV.

James

[rsimper]

Originally posted by davidlim88
I can't understand why some models come with 2 and some with 3 piece backs. Is it a function of the size/cut of the woods that Taylor manages to obtain

Yup.

Tonally, I dont hear any difference. Some people swear they do, but I would challenge them to tell them apart eyes with eyes closed. I guess there would have to be SOME difference, seeing as there is an extra glue joint, but it is probably inconsequential.

Just as a note, Taylor makes no distinguishment (a word?) between the 2 and 3 piece back from a cost standpoint...they ship them interchangably unless you express a preference one way or another.

[Cisco]

I think that when a really nice piece of wood turns up and it's not big enough for a back, they splice in another piece to use it. It doesn't make any difference tonally, just aesthetically. I likes the 2 piece because of the perfect bookmatch effect. Ya likes what ya likes !!!


Ron

[cpmusic]

I belive Cisco has it right. Sometimes you either use some highly figured wood in three pieces or you don't use it at all. I haven't heard any definitive statement of tonal differences, so go with what works for you.

I prefer a 2-piece for the same reason as David. I like the simplicity and symmetry of a nice bookmatched set, even if the figuring isn't as stunning as some of the boards that show up in 3-piece backs.

[Mike A.]

I totally don't mean to talk down at all here and I hope nobody takes it as that, but there is another post on this topic where I delve into the differences-structurally and tonally-between 2 and 3pc backs at length. This topic seemes to be asked over and over again and each time there are different answers. Please do a forum search and do some reading up on what everyone else has already said about this.

There IS a tonal difference, however slight. Otherwise the D35 would not still exist today. The ONLY difference between a D28 and a D35 is the 3pc back of the D35. Created out of necessity due to the dwindling supply of good brazilian rosewood and the export laws enacted in '69, there is no reason other than tone to keep a D35. The bracing for the top, the neck joint, the inlays, bindings, and everything else is the same from D28 to D35.

Taylor doesn't have a price difference for the 3pc, Martin does. If all manufacturers charged for the 3pc back, we would be predisposed to thinking that there was some difference that we SHOULD be looking for. But since our favorite manufacturer makes no model or price designation stating 2pc or 3pc, the predisposition is not there.

Case in point: I watched a Martin die-hard come in and play a 714ce with the two piece back. He loved it. Always telling me 'bout how beautiful the guitar sounded and how it's voice was SO different than that of his HD28. Then, I had him play an identical 714ce, only this one had a 3pc back. He noticed the difference right away. He had to have that guitar.

Short answer as to the tonal difference: Different "shape" to the bass response.

Long answer: Look it up in a forum search..........

Hope this helps,
-Mike A.

[JW]

Being that no two guitars are ever the same. I dont think that question can ever be answered fairly. Ive played two identical guitar fresh out of the box and both sounded differant(noticeable) Ive played the same model with 2 and 3 peice backs and sometimes one sounds better than the other but sometimes it the 2 peice sometimes its the 3 peice. For cosmetics I really like the 3 peice better but my favorite player(K14C) is two peice. Its magical. But my 710CE-LTD is three peice and it sounds as good or better that my 910B that has a rare two peice back(rare for a modern brazilian). Id buy it based on sound first and then if you can find one that sounds great and has the back you desire go for it. I really dont think it has enough tonal differance to make a substancial differance. JW

[jmintzer]

Originally posted by Mike A.
I totally don't mean to talk down at all here and I hope nobody takes it as that, but there is another post on this topic where I delve into the differences-structurally and tonally-between 2 and 3pc backs at length. This topic seemes to be asked over and over again and each time there are different answers. Please do a forum search and do some reading up on what everyone else has already said about this.

Good advice, you may want to follow it before posting!

There IS a tonal difference, however slight. Otherwise the D35 would not still exist today. The ONLY difference between a D28 and a D35 is the 3pc back of the D35. Created out of necessity due to the dwindling supply of good brazilian rosewood and the export laws enacted in '69, there is no reason other than tone to keep a D35. The bracing for the top, the neck joint, the inlays, bindings, and everything else is the same from D28 to D35.

From the Martin website:

Bracing ofthe D-28: Standard 5/16"
Bracing of the D-35: Standard 3/4"

There is a significant difference in the construction of these 2 guitars, and it is not due to the 2 vs. 3 piece back.

Case in point: I watched a Martin die-hard come in and play a 714ce with the two piece back. He loved it. Always telling me 'bout how beautiful the guitar sounded and how it's voice was SO different than that of his HD28. Then, I had him play an identical 714ce, only this one had a 3pc back. He noticed the difference right away. He had to have that guitar.

And it was quite possible that he would have picked up a 3rd guitar and would have noticed a difference, yet again!

Short answer as to the tonal difference: Different "shape" to the bass response.

Absolutely correct, but it is due to the top bracing differences.

Long answer: Look it up in a forum search..........

I did, on the C F Martin website
James

[muzz76]

I really don't think theres any difference and even if there is it would be so slight as to not even be something that could be noticed let alone measured in any consistent fashion.

The biggest factors that affect tonal response are body design, bracing, top wood, and back/side material.

A three vs. two piece back to me falls into the same realm as bolt on vs. Dovetail neck and that they are so far down the ladder of effect as to have no effect whatsoever.

Just my 0.02


Derek

[NdaBoonies]

Yet another 0.02 here. In most (all?) cases, isn't a 2-piece back on a "high end" guitar made up of a bookmatched pair... all the same piece of wood, just about 1/64" (or 1/32", or 1/16", or WHATEVER!) removed from each other in the "plank" from which they came? These pieces SHOULD have a common "tap tone", etc. With a three piece back, a "foreign object" (different piece of wood) is inserted between the two "bookmatched twins" which adds another dimension to the "equation". I don't think anyone can say it makes for a better or worse sound, but SURELY it must make a DIFFERENT sound than would the two pieces, alone (if they'd been large enough to make up a complete back!?). In some instances, it might add a nice "complexity" (i.e., "magical"); in others it might throw a little dissonance into the "mix" and sound "different" (i.e., "not so good")!

Maybe that's where the art beats up on science?

[Bob Womack]

The Taylor salespeople say there is a slight difference in three vs. two. They say they hear a "tighter" bass response on the three piece back. Could be so. Smaller woofer speakers are often described the same way when compared to larger woofers. Any link?

Bob

[Mike A.]

Originally posted by Bob Womack
The Taylor salespeople say there is a slight difference in three vs. two. They say they hear a "tighter" bass response on the three piece back. Could be so. Smaller woofer speakers are often described the same way when compared to larger woofers. Any link?

Bob

Sounds familiar, James. Don't you think? Wonder where I heard that before........

I'm not bigger than knowing when I'm wrong, but when it comes to that Martin thing, which brace are they talking about? The main X-brace? The tone bars? The two fan braces? Or are they talking about the back? A couple weeks ago, I had an hour and a half to sit in on some Martin training. That's where he mentioned the "no difference" in bracing from the 28 series up to the 42 series. That difference in size of bracing you're referring to is coincidentally the difference between a D-series and an HD-series. Furthermore, the HD's have scalloped braces, like the current 16 series. The same thing is found on the HD28VR stuff as well. Sure, the H stands for Herringbone edge work, but it mainly denotes the scalloped bracing.

I'll go check some Martin literature out and if I'm wrong, thanks for pointing it out. But the fact remains, I picked out a 3pc back for myself because I HEARD and LOVED that tighter bass response. Let's also not forget something else here folks: This is Taylor we're talking about. They're construction consitency is way, way up there. Somewhere around 90-95% similarty of tone. Unheard of with most other mass guitar builders. We mentioned this on this very forum numerous times.

When you've played as many of the same model Taylors as I have(as in over 20 714ce's) and they're all two piece backs and when one comes along that's a 3pc and the tone has a different and new feel to it, you stand up and take notice. When you get right down to it, you just can't beat real world experience. Of course, with any guitar buying decision, buy the one that sounds the best. I don't care if it's a 4pc back or doesn't even have a glossed back. If you love it, buy it. Try to have someone play them for you with your back turned and pick the one you like best.

Hasta,
-Mike A.

PS. One final thought: Think about how the sound bounces off a 2pc back versus a 3pc. One easy way to do this is imagining the the back was able to fold up about 50degrees on it's rib/axis.
Visually: 3pc= \_/ 2pc= \/

Makes you think don't it! Physics is hard to refute.

[JW]

While physics is hard to refute the backs are shaped identiucal and not in the 50 degree angle you show. the wood is curved into a slight bowl not shape angles. Of course your example shows more area and would create more bass but this just isnt the way a guitar is built. Ive played lots of guitars over my lifetime and Ive played many of the same guitar. I bet Ive played 100+ 714s but none sound exactly the same but I didnt notice any more differance in bass on 3pcs back Vs 2. Alot of times you just run into that special guitar that just has more bass. It may have a 3 pc back it maybe 2. I just think its more a cosmetic choice. I personally like the 3 peice back but its just a cosmetic thing for me. My 710CE-LTDs have great bass, 3 pc backs but the braceing is differant that any other taylors I own. But they sound completly differant from each other. They are identical in every respect and even the woods look like they came from the same tree(only several ser #s apart. same strings same tune but still differant. just my 2 cents JW

[muzz76]

Beyond the magic that seems to eminate from a wonderful guitar when played well, its not really more than a sum of its parts and how well it was built.

Virtually every measurable tonal trait in an instrument can be sourced and explained, the rest comes down to the individual characteristics of a single piece of wood beyond the general characteristics of the species used.

If you ask a reputable luthier how they shape their tone or get a tone such as a tighter bass response, I guarantee that a three piece back will never even be considered.

The sound comes first from the body and how much air its capable of containing and moving. All things equal if that is ever truly possible in the world of acoustics, a GA or GC will always have a tighter and quicker response across the frequency range because they have less air to move and less space to move it out quicker.

Second, it comes from the bracing and 'voicing' of the top which is relatively adjusting the thickness in various areas using tap tones as a measuring stick. Taylor being a large factory operation does not have the time to do this so they brace based on the body shape and a general formula which works as consistent as possible.

Third, is the species of top wood used and its density. Generally and there are exceptions mean cedar which as a softer topwood will respond and vibrate quicker under a softer touch than an equally braced sitka or adirondack top.

Fourth, back and side wood and the species density. How reflective the material is. Maple being very dense as a general rule would bounce the sound faster than Rosewood which is much less so.

A three piece back is still gonna be bound by both the same characteristics and variables that exist in a two piece. Its the same material reflective material which in turn is a number of steps down the ladder of what structurally affects a guitars tone.


Derek

[Bob Womack]

My (only) point in the linkage between woofer size and back component size was to wonder aloud if it had something to do with the amount of area per back component which is available to resonate.

Bob