"My guitar only louder" is not a good goal

buzzardwhiskey · #1 02-10-2018, 10:02 AM

... Or at least an "imperfect" goal.

I've been struggling, as I'm sure many of you have, to get a good reproduction of my guitar on stage. I've tried several different pickup and pre-amp combinations with varying results. But one of the things I'm really beginning to understand is that my desire for "my guitar only louder" isn't a particularly useful goal.

My understanding of why this happens is extremely poor. Here's the deal... I recently achieved an almost hyper-accurate representation of my guitar via the Tonedexter system. When played through headphones or through my Schertler Unico or Soundcraft/Yamaha PA at attentive listening levels, it sounds amazing. But when we play loud bars (and it always seems to happen when I have no control) the guitar sounds beyond bad. Tinny, ice-picky and thin are my most common complaints.

I'm thinking that I may start bringing my Unico to use as a monitor and that the DI-out can go to the house. Then at least I can have it sound good on the stage.

FrankHudson · #2 02-10-2018, 10:21 AM

The human ear/mind hears the frequency mix differently at different loudness levels. Search on "Fletcher Munson curves" for the explanation, such as this one:

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/

buzzardwhiskey · #3 02-10-2018, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

The human ear/mind hears the frequency mix differently at different loudness levels. Search on "Fletcher Munson curves" for the explanation, such as this one:

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/

Wow! This explains a lot.

As the volume goes up, I need lower the treble and bass commensurately.

lschwart · #4 02-10-2018, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

... Or at least an "imperfect" goal.

I've been struggling, as I'm sure many of you have, to get a good reproduction of my guitar on stage. I've tried several different pickup and pre-amp combinations with varying results. But one of the things I'm really beginning to understand is that my desire for "my guitar only louder" isn't a particularly useful goal.

My understanding of why this happens is extremely poor. Here's the deal... I recently achieved an almost hyper-accurate representation of my guitar via the Tonedexter system. When played through headphones or through my Schertler Unico or Soundcraft/Yamaha PA at attentive listening levels, it sounds amazing. But when we play loud bars (and it always seems to happen when I have no control) the guitar sounds beyond bad. Tinny, ice-picky and thin are my most common complaints.

I'm thinking that I may start bringing my Unico to use as a monitor and that the DI-out can go to the house. Then at least I can have it sound good on the stage.

It's hard to project a realistic acoustic guitar sound out into a noisy venue like a loud bar. Pickups give you a simpler and in a sense a more coherent sound that can do the job better. In a noisy bar no one can hear all that nice, airy natural reverberation, especially if it's part of a full band mix. In those cases, acoustic guitar has to find a simpler role to play in a mix than it can in quieter, less complicated situations (or in complex ones with a full-scale, fully featured PA with a good tech at the helm).

Louis

lschwart · #5 02-10-2018, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

Wow! This explains a lot.

As the volume goes up, I need lower the treble and bass commensurately.

And you need to leave a hole in your mix at the remaining mid-range frequencies for the guitar to fill by reducing them from other sources (or creating arrangements with that in mind). Of course, this EQ is going to make your beautiful ToneDexter image sound more like a pickup, but it will be a serviceable pickup-like sound if you get it right.

In loud, noisy situations in the context of my band, I often have to engage the 200 Hz HPF on my PZ-Pre for the acoustic, while resisting the temptation to spike the highs. It reduces my rhythm guitar to mid-range punch and pick scratch, but it can be made to work in the mix.

Louis

RustyAxe · #6 02-10-2018, 10:43 AM

Which is why I tell those who want to spend a fortune on instruments, preamps, modelers, super high end speakers, etc, etc, to play in a six piece bar band to save their money. It's not about acoustic fidelity in those circumstances.

But if playing concerts, with a seated audience, acoustically good room, then it's worth it to get the exact sound you want, because your audience will hear it too.

buzzardwhiskey · #7 02-10-2018, 10:52 AM

The Acoustic Guitar Forum is wonderful. Real-world experience on tap.

NoodleFingers · #8 02-10-2018, 11:10 AM

buzzardwhiskey--

You've been using ToneDexter for a while. I assume you were using a WaveMap trained in some slot besides #22, and you had the character knob all the way up to help punch through the mix? But the sound was still tinny and thin?

buzzardwhiskey · #9 02-10-2018, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoodleFingers

buzzardwhiskey--

You've been using ToneDexter for a while. I assume you were using a WaveMap trained in some slot besides #22, and you had the character knob all the way up to help punch through the mix? But the sound was still tinny and thin?

Last night I tried three "configurations"...

1) A Slot 5 that I'd recently mapped that is my "most accurate". I had it on "full real" character (all the way clockwise) which is how I normally play. This was absolutely NOT going to work.

2) The same Slot 5 with the character now on "full un-real" with the knob all the way anti-clockwise. This was slightly better but still bad.

3) A Slot 2 that I'd recorded when I first got the unit. This had the mic very close to the strings and also had the mic gain a bit low. The combo tends to bloom the upper mids and the sound is slightly more "sounds like a really good K&K". The character now was "full un-real" (anti-clockwise).

Number 3 worked best and I removed a huge amount of treble using the EQ.

Irish Pennant · #10 02-10-2018, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

The human ear/mind hears the frequency mix differently at different loudness levels. Search on "Fletcher Munson curves" for the explanation, such as this one:

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/

Thanks for this post, I think I'll start to work with this.

To the OP, "My Guitar, Only Louder" the only place I hear this phrase is here at AGF. I guess it can be a worthy pursuit but can also be a frustrating obsession. My goal is to have my guitar sound good through my PA system and to have my PA system sound good to the audience in what ever venue it's setup in. That is challenging enough without trying to add the "MGOL" element into it. When I plug into a House PA, forget about it, I just play different song sets and bring a guitar with some on board tone control.

buzzardwhiskey · #11 02-10-2018, 11:36 AM

I'd tried an inexpensive multi-effects unit (Digitech RP360) that I ended up not loving, but I may bring it back just for EQ.

guitaniac · #12 02-10-2018, 11:51 AM

For noisy settings it might be helpful to get the newest firmware upgrade so that you can blend in 70% (or some lesser percentage) of the dry pickup signal with wavemaps which were created post upgrade.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f....php?p=5600593

Mr. Jelly · #13 02-10-2018, 12:02 PM

Your guitar is what it is. Any changes as in volume or environment becomes a different paradigm. Which means you are comparing apples to oranges. It would be easier to work backwards. Find the room sound you want and use an acoustic guitar modeler to accomplish it. The guitar you play on stage may not make that much difference except for your stage image.

buzzardwhiskey · #14 02-10-2018, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaniac

For noisy settings it might be helpful to get the newest firmware upgrade so that you can blend in 70% (or some lesser percentage) of the dry pickup signal with wavemaps which were created post upgrade.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f....php?p=5600593

This is a good idea too. I have yet to do this. Thanks!

varmonter · #15 02-10-2018, 01:48 PM

lshwart

Quote:

In loud, noisy situations in the context of my band, I often have to engage the 200 Hz HPF on my PZ-Pre for the acoustic, while resisting the temptation to spike the highs. It reduces my rhythm guitar to mid-range punch and pick scratch, but it can be made to work in the mix.

Louis

so you cut everything below 200hz ??
is that a bit thin? or is this what makes it cut through the mix?