Dead Spot / Wolf Note on a new Martin D-18

[bendandsnap]

Try changing the resonance frequency by trying different bridge pin materials. You can search for blutack or poster putty that people commonly talk about and use. The extra weight can shift it off completely or on a note least played. Otherwise make sure you return the guitar within your 30 day window or it’ll always bug you.

[turtlejimmy]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I have about a dozen acoustic guitars, including 3 Martins ('67 D-35, 2006 000-28VS, and 2018 D-45).

I have never heard a "wolf note" on any of my guitars in my entire life of almost 60 years of very active guitar playing. I'm predominantly a finger picker. I have no idea what people are referring to with this "wolf note" phenomena.

- Glenn

It sounds made up. Like, something you could say to a seller to try and drive their price down.




Turtle

[KevinH]

These threads, among others, might be helpful....

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=617040

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=594617

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=573263

[Rogerblair]

I hope my post didn’t imply that I’m anti Martin. I’m not, and have owned many over the years I’ve been playing. They all have exhibited some degree of wolf notes at various frequencies, especially when the guitar is new and breaking in.

Other brands have also had the issue - Eastman, Yamaha come to mind. My Gibsons and my new Guilds don’t suffer from the affliction, however. Have no idea why. They’re as light and responsive as any guitar I’ve ever had. I don’t use a thumb pick, only flesh, no nail.

As stated above, it can drive you crazy.

Rb

[b1j]

Before the Gryphon tech reached in and bent the pickup wire away from the side of my HD-28E, I was getting a thuddy sound, accompanied by a buzz, on all three of those middle E notes: low E 12, A 7, and D 2. Now the buzz is gone, but I still hear a little resonance deficit and falloff in sustain in those three notes.

Maybe I’m imagining it, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that rosewood body size and shape has a resonance valley at that frequency. I would suspect the strings, but all three lower ones?

The previously unplayed HD-28E is still quite new. I’m going to try to play a lot of loud E, F, and A chords and see if I can coax that note out of this guitar. In time I’m sure I’ll learn to adjust my playing when I need that note to ring.

[Alan Carruth]

wolfi wrote:
"They have a super boomy, loud and quick decaying bass with barely any sustain - as if it extracts all the energy from the string in a hurry, and turns it into sound. So a wolf note in regards to the loud initial sound, but really a dead spot in regards to sustain."

That's it, alright. The basic mechanism tends to happen with any guitar that is really responsive, but I don't think of it as a 'wolf' unless it's a problem. It's caused by a strong resonance of either the top, or the air that can push on the top, that makes in move a lot at the bridge location. As has been said, the simplest fix is to add some mass at the bridge to help 'nail it down'. More sophisticated treatments seek out the offending resonance and shift it's pitch, either by adding mass or shaving braces if it's a 'wood' resonance. If you can move it to a pitch that's in between frets it's usually less of an issue.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

wolfi wrote:
"They have a super boomy, loud and quick decaying bass with barely any sustain - as if it extracts all the energy from the string in a hurry, and turns it into sound. So a wolf note in regards to the loud initial sound, but really a dead spot in regards to sustain."

That's it, alright. The basic mechanism tends to happen with any guitar that is really responsive, but I don't think of it as a 'wolf' unless it's a problem. It's caused by a strong resonance of either the top, or the air that can push on the top, that makes in move a lot at the bridge location. As has been said, the simplest fix is to add some mass at the bridge to help 'nail it down'. More sophisticated treatments seek out the offending resonance and shift it's pitch, either by adding mass or shaving braces if it's a 'wood' resonance. If you can move it to a pitch that's in between frets it's usually less of an issue.

Thanks for the insight, Alan.

I guess the wolf notes on my guitars were culled out before I got them. I'm hoping nobody wants to release these culled out wolf notes back to the wilds anytime soon.

- Glenn

[gmel555]

In 50 years of playing I can say I've heard this on 3 or 4 guitars, none owned by me. The last was just before COVID on a $5-6k used guitar I was "auditioning", made by one of the most respected current luthiers around. It was only a year or two old and I suspect the wolf was why it was for sale. I did try playing the same note on a different string and fret, but the response was the same "thump or thud". Re it being "a Martin thing"...I've owned 4 (3 currently) and none have been so afflicted, though I'd imagine it can show up on any "brand".

[kizz]

Wolfi says that he experiences the same "wolf" notes in the same positions on another guitar and that it is only when he plays fingerpicking playing bass notes with his thumb. There are no "wolf" notes when he strums. Without being an expert, it tells me that it must be something to do with playing technique, since it would be a miracle that 2 different guitars have the same "wolf" tones in the same positions. Other than that, I don't see what it specifically has to do with Martin guitars.

[GinL]

I've had this on my main guitar. Same description, loud, thuddy short lived note. Occurs on the same note on different strings. You'll be pleased to know mine has gone away. I expect it was passing through a moisture content and the tiny changes in weight shifted the resonant frequency to be closer to a note.

The wolf note will be on a particularly frequency, or multiple thereof. If you're not playing with other instruments, tuning to a different reference frequency than A=440 might mean that frequency doesn't fall as much on a note. I believe all guitars will have a frequency where this occurs, it is just less noticeable in some because of where it falls.

[Jinder]

This isn’t entirely uncommon-most guitars of an all solid construction will have a resonant node/“main air” frequency which can fall on a particular fretted note.

Square shoulder dreads tend to exhibit it around the low G (third fret on low E string) which can be a real pain for those who want to play Bluegrass runs or country style fingerpicking pieces in the key of G. Slope shoulder dreads often exhibit it around F#, although I’ve had Gibson slopes that have had minor wolf tones at F# and G.

Worst affected for me was an otherwise beautiful J180 which rang like a bell everywhere other than the low G. The abrupt change in tone was so noticeable that I couldn’t keep it.

Super Jumbos tend to suffer less with this issue, although I’ve owned an SJ200 that was very (very!) slightly affected around the low E, but I always tune my SJ200s to Eb so it doesn’t matter.

Brass bridge pins can help to add resonant mass to the top to lower the node and drop the affected frequency “between” the frets, but otherwise it’s a case of brace shaving or other modifications to dial the issue out. Personally, I’d return the guitar. If it’s bugging you a little now, in three months you’ll not want to play it at all.

[Wolfi]

Hey there,

many helpful replies here, thank you!

Originally Posted by kizz

Could it be your technique ?
What happens if you play with a capo on the second fret ?

No, not connected to technique, but it's certainly more apparent playing with flesh instead of a pick.

Originally Posted by Hank Linderman

Wooden guitars are inconsistent, it's part of their charm. OTOH, an actual dead spot is a real problem.

A couple of things to try.

1. New strings - even a different type / gauge of string. A different "D" might be all that's needed to fix that problem.
2. Setup - it's very possible that you have some setup issues, like not enough neck relief, uneven frets, etc. - I suspect the neck is too flat. Higher action = more tone. (To a point...) Find the best guitar tech you can.
3. Alter your playing technique to suit this particular guitar - no wooden instrument is perfect, you might have to avoid the octave low E, or it might be you need to dampen the other side of the string, that *unplayed* part between the nut and your fretting finger. It's possible the string is fighting itself at that spot. Has anyone else played the instrument and gotten the same results as you? You may need to play the loud strings softer and the quiet ones louder. (It becomes habit after awhile.)
4. Modify the instrument - last resort. Guitar techs have all sorts of little tricks, including messing with individual fret height.
5. An experiment - what happens if you tune the guitar down a half step or two?

Best...H

New strings didn't really change it. Slightly, but always within the string's individual characteristics, not altering the problem itself. The setup is perfect (neck relief just right, 2.5mm for the low E-string at the 12th fret, nut slots at perfect height). A friend has gotten the same result when fingerpicking. It's less apparent but still there. Less apparent due to the fact that you can't feel the strong bass vibrating the whole instrument for the mentioned notes.

Originally Posted by sinistral

This is not a “Martin” thing, it’s a guitar thing, and it tends to be more prevalent with lightly braced guitars.

To the OP, perhaps Alan Carruth will chime in, but in the meantime if you google “alan carruth” (in quotes) and either “wolf” or “dead note” / “dead spot” you will get a wealth of information on the topic. To add to Hank Linderman’s suggestions, you could try different bridge pins that are heavier than the plastic pins that came with the guitar (e.g., bone, effectively adding a small amount of weight to the bridge). Not to open up another can of worms, but I had a Taylor with a dead note at the 9th fret of the A string and, after trying all of the usual remedies, I resorted to trying a Tone-Rite, which actually helped.

Yes, new bridge pins is up next on the list!

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Wolfi, you likely are already doing this but make sure your picking forearm is away from your D-18's top when trying to detect wolf notes or excessively loud or quiet notes. Forearm pressure greatly affects the tone of a guitar and its resonances. Obviously, when actually playing the guitar your forearm will rest somewhat on the top but forearm pressure on the top affects the tone of all guitars regardless of their design or brand name.

I played around a little with my arm, unfortunately it didn't change much. Of course there was more sustain when not resting my arm on the body of the guitar, but the problem was still apparent.

Originally Posted by turtlejimmy

I just bought a brand new D18, from GC of all places, didn't have a chance to A/B it with others, it was the only one in the store.

Not a clue here what you're talking about. Nothing like that is happening here, in fact I've been talking a lot about this guitar, with friends and some in here, and the most prominent thing is how even it is across the strings and clear as a bell.

If I were you, I'd get a professional setup on it and then see what it does.

Turtle

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I have about a dozen acoustic guitars, including 3 Martins ('67 D-35, 2006 000-28VS, and 2018 D-45).

I have never heard a "wolf note" on any of my guitars in my entire life of almost 60 years of very active guitar playing. I'm predominantly a finger picker. I have no idea what people are referring to with this "wolf note" phenomena.

- Glenn

Here's a a typical soundtrack of what I can hear when playing the wolf note compared to a "normal" note:

I'll try Brass bridge pins next and see what they do. Other than that, yes, I had the chance to try out a natural Martin D-18 in a shop nearby and even with that one I could hear those dead spots around the same positions, maybe a little less prominent. If I won't find a solution with the suggested tips here I'll most probably return it - such a shame since it has the most beautiful tone as long as you don't hit those notes.

Thanks again,
Wolfi

[kizz]

No, not connected to technique, but it's certainly more apparent playing with flesh instead of a pick.

Wolfi, in your first post you wrote :

I should add that it won't be noticeable at all if you are always strumming. It's when you pick through some chords slowly or play fingerstyle with bass notes ringing out that you really notice it though!

You also wrote :

I had the chance to try out a natural Martin D-18 in a shop nearby and even with that one I could hear those dead spots around the same positions, maybe a little less prominent.

Firstly, 2 different guitars will never have the same dead notes in the same place, that would be an incredible coincidence. When you say that on the other guitar in the shop it was little less prominent, the reason could be that you are playing in another room. Secondly, before you start spending money on brass bridgepins and all sorts of other tweaks, or for that matter handing back such a nice guitar which you might later regret, you should see if it really isn't you who produce the tones e.g. with finger placement, attack/attack When the same thing happens again on 2 guitars, then there is something that could indicate that. But it could also just be that a D18 (which I wouldn't describe as a finger-playing guitar) just doesn't suit your playing style.

[Wolfi]

Originally Posted by kizz

Wolfi, in your first post you wrote :


You also wrote :


Firstly, 2 different guitars will never have the same dead notes in the same place, that would be an incredible coincidence. When you say that on the other guitar in the shop it was little less prominent, the reason could be that you are playing in another room. Secondly, before you start spending money on brass bridgepins and all sorts of other tweaks, or for that matter handing back such a nice guitar which you might later regret, you should see if it really isn't you who produce the tones e.g. with finger placement, attack/attack When the same thing happens again on 2 guitars, then there is something that could indicate that. But it could also just be that a D18 (which I wouldn't describe as a finger-playing guitar) just doesn't suit your playing style.

I wouldn't even say this is a weird coincidence; as the overall design is just the same it's just a matter of how apparent it can get, rather than which notes are in question. As I let another person try it out with the same outcome, I'd say it's not connected to may playing technique. I have to play extra carefully for the wolf notes to not jump right out of the sound hole, promiment, while dying out just as fast.

[kizz]

Originally Posted by Wolfi

I wouldn't even say this is a weird coincidence; as the overall design is just the same it's just a matter of how apparent it can get, rather than which notes are in question. As I let another person try it out with the same outcome, I'd say it's not connected to may playing technique. I have to play extra carefully for the wolf notes to not jump right out of the sound hole, promiment, while dying out just as fast.

Sorry, but no two guitars wil ever sound or behave the same even if it´s the same design, brand, model, machine made standard D18 or full handmade, that´s not possible.
It´s about technique when you say you have to play extra carefully to tame the notes and that´s the nature of playing guitars imo. We can all produce strange tones if we really want to and we can get so fucused on weird tones that we hear nothing else. I have a hard time believing that the (both) guitars are the problem here, at least from the way you describe your problem, but i hope you find a solution