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Old 12-18-2015, 11:25 AM
hjones89 hjones89 is offline
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Default Looking for tips maximizing gain before feedback with a clip on microphone live sound

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum, have used it over the years for lots of advice and I thank you all for it.

I've been playing with a group of guys consisting of mandolin, electric bass, and drums played with brushes.

We've just gotten a PA up and running and now we're battling the ever present issue of feedback. I don't have any issues locating and cutting the source, it tends to be my guitar that I can't seem to squeeze enough signal out of before we get feedback, especially when I need a little boost for leads. My signal flow is a bit weird, audio technica ATM-350 -> JoeMeek 3q pre amp -> MXR clean boost for lead.

#1: Any and all tips about maximizing my acoustic signal with a clip on microphone would be appreciated. ( We currently only have the option of one monitor mix so in ear monitors may be a bit goofy) Currently using two 12 inch floor monitors and two 12 inch mains

#2: I'm a beginner in using microphone amplification for my acoustic and Im not sure if my signal flow is optimal at this point. Obviously for the lead level issue one option is for everyone else to play quieter, but I'm wondering if anyone has any other ideas for giving me just a little more gain for leads.

Thanks everyone!
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Old 12-18-2015, 12:19 PM
RustyAxe RustyAxe is offline
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Probably not what you want to hear, but that type of mic isn't optimal for a combo with drums (just because everyone then tends to be louder on stage). While they sound good on a quiet stage, you've already discovered their major drawback. Anything you can place between you and the floor monitor will help (another player, for example). Beyond that, you might want to invest in a decent soundhole pickup or SBT (K&K or other) and/or try a dual source setup.
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Old 12-18-2015, 12:28 PM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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1) manage stage volume, and thus monitor volume. If your whole band commits to keeping stage volume as quiet as possible, then you will be able to turn the monitors way down and everyone will still be able to play well.

2) powerful EQ, especially in the monitor mix. Having different monitor mixes with the ability to EQ each separately really helps; sounds like you don't have that though. In that case, you have to get everything set to play, and "ring out" the system globally to cut the frequencies as needed. A mic pre-amp with 3 knobs is probably not gonna cut it. I would look into a 31-band graphic EQ for the monitor mix; the dbx 131 is a great (and cheap) choice.
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Old 12-18-2015, 04:06 PM
lschwart lschwart is offline
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Your first line of defense is placement of the monitor. If you've got a wedge in front of you, find a new place for it, and keep in mind both the pickup pattern of the mic and the way the guitar top might be reflecting sound back into the mic.

Often the best place for a guitar monitor is behind the player, so the player's back acts as a shield between the monitor sound and the mic. Sometimes side fills will work better than wedges in this situation. Of course a lot depends also on the room you're in and the sort of stage you're on. Are these problems you're having at particular gigs or is it in a rehearsal space?

Often in the case of moderate volume acoustic music, finding the right position for the monitor and a little more attention to dynamics from the band will be all you need.

The next line of defense is EQ. Aaron's recommendation of a 31 band EQ on the monitor signal is a standard way of dealing with this. Another way is to get a preamp with a notch filter on it--and a phase switch can also often help a great deal. There are also some pretty good electronic feedback destroyers out there that will automatically notch out any frequencies that are causing feedback. Sabine, for example, makes one that works well when used on one problematic signal chain (it can be put in the channel insert, for example, of your guitar channel at the mixer). Make sure that you are also engaging a HPF on the guitar signal somewhere in the chain (at 80 Hz at the very least, but 100 Hz or even as high as 200 Hz or so can make a big difference in low-end feedback, and it will also help the guitar stand out in the mix). For boosting, instead of the clean boost, try an EQ pedal for boosting. This way you can only boost the frequencies you want for the lead (mostly in the mid and upper ranges--it's often a boost in the bass that causes feedback for acoustic guitars). An EQ pedal like the Boss GE-7 would let you set a boost level at only the frequencies you need and to leave the bass frequencies where they are--or you can even attenuate them.

Try and keep effects like reverb out of the monitor mix, too.

If none of this works, then you'll need to rethink the use of an external mic (or at least the mic only). Using a pickup for part of your signal--especially for the feedback prone part of it--can make a big difference, and you might still be able to use the mic to give the sound some natural "air," as they say. There's lots of great information on this forum from people who use dual source systems.

Simplest solution, of course, is to get either an undersaddle or a magnetic pickup. These are feedback resistant. it's just a matter of whether or not you feel you can get a sound you like out of them. Digital imaging systems like the Fishman Aura are another way to use a pickup and get something like a mic'd sound out of it.

Louis
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Old 12-19-2015, 12:10 AM
hjones89 hjones89 is offline
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Seems that the K&K pure mini gets a lot of love.. I think I'll do some research on dual source, maybe combine a pickup such as the K&K and still use my ATM 350? Does the pure require a soundhole cover or anything?

Thank you all for your advice. Achieving beautiful tone on the guitar is easy until you start plugging things in..
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Old 12-19-2015, 07:05 AM
sublro sublro is offline
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One thing ive come to realize over time is that a lot of feedback issues have their genesis in the bass frequencies. Theres a lot of low bass you can do without... A lot of preamps, or any good eq will allow you to shut down low frequencies that arent all that sonically useful -this function is sometimes actually on your gear, in a feature called a "high-pass filter" (stops the bass, and lets the highs pass)

Thats why youll see on some mixers that every channel has a button to shut off anything below a certain frequency, say 80hz.

This also goes double for monitors. Often people reach for more volume from monitors, when what they realyy need is more CLARITY - and clarity comes from mid and high frequencies, so lose some of the bass in your monitors and you both have more gain (volume) before feedback, and more clarity which, pound for pound will get the monitoring job done with less need for volume...

Make sense?

So look at ways to reign in and make sparing and wise use of low frequencies, and youll have a better fighting chance against feedback and then use your graphic eq to sharpshoot remaining problem frequnencies
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