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  #31  
Old 08-16-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudals View Post
I see homeless folks holding "Homeless Veteran" sign everyday. I feel guilty (?) for not helping them everyday but I have wondered whether they really are real veterans. One of them gets picked up by his gf or wife who drives a nice car.
That always looks shady. But if they aren't representing themselves as falling apart shoes, filthy lived in clothes, etc. Panhandling could be letting them make the mortgage, feed the kids, and NOT end up on the street. Double check their sign. I see both "Homeless vet" and "Disabled Vet. Wife and kids to feed. Anything helps".

It's tough. But if you want to help, help an organization. Then you are sure of what you are giving to.
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  #32  
Old 08-16-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lfoo6952 View Post
I often come across homeless people standing at stop lights begging for money, some of whom carry signs stating they are homeless veterans. I'm all for supporting our veterans, and I feel guilty not giving, but there are many phonies out there. I feel conflicted about this.

There are probably quite a few vets on this forum. Thank you for your service. How can you tell if they are truly a veteran or not? I've never served, so I wouldn't know what to ask them to see if they are telling the truth. What you you ask them?

Luke
I wouldn't care one way or the other. Dude needs some help. If a man has to beg for it it's because he can't wait for volunteers. Yet, there he is trying to sate his hunger by swallowing his pride.

I don't consider myself a vet. All the things I had going in I still had going out. I lost or sacrificed nothing physically nor psychically. I had a great time on the tax-payer's dime, all things considered, and I did it mostly for me; not for a nation, not for its citizens nor its sovereignty. I didn't know anyone who joined for those things. Rarely did you find a cat who bloused his trousers just because and when you did you stayed far, far away from him.

If I had to park my shady side on a street corner behind a cardboard sign it wouldn't make a bit of difference if I was once a soldier or not.
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2017, 11:48 AM
ThermiteTermite ThermiteTermite is offline
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Originally Posted by aknow View Post
Skip this if you support the current military.
As a physician, I worked at the W. Los Angeles V.A. for 3 years, and had to resign, due to the deplorable conditions, and lack of treatment the vets received.
Vets who were not drafted, and chose to engage in senseless conflicts can sleep in their own bed. Most of the "homeless vets" around here are alcoholic/drug addicts who do little more than bum everyone out by not even trying to work.
I imagine if you are trained to kill and live that life for 4-12 years, there would be major difficulties re-joining society in a meaningful way, if you're a killer.
Our government treats vets horribly, except for all of the phony patriotism. I'm sure when the news liars salute our wounded warriors, it makes them feel much better, doesn't it?
The strict definition of 'veteran' and the common understanding of the word are different. Most homeless who claim they are veterans benefit from the implied meaning that they are 'combat veterans' which is a very small subset of 'veterans.'


Most vets aren't 'trained to kill' beyond initial rifle and grenade quals in basic training. When the US deploys somewhere, well over half of the soldiers deployed do not see, and are not supposed to see, direct combat. Supply/Quartermaster, Communications, Finance, Food Service, Transportation, Medical, etc. make up most of those deployed, so most veterans of Vietnam etc. are likely to not have seen direct combat.

a 'veteran' is anyone who served in the military, wartime or peacetime, so a homeless person who made it through basic training in peacetime, had a Occupational Specialty of personnel clerk, and never left Ft. Jackson and got chaptered out after 18 months is not lying to you if he says he is a veteran.

a wartime veteran is the same guy who never left the US, the only difference is there was a war that some US troops were involved in somewhere during the 18 months he was clerking in South Carolina.

Having said that , when someone asking for money tells you he is a 'veteran' the common understanding is that he was humping it through the jungle being ambushed by VC or NVA in the 1960's etc. Very few 'veterans' had that or similar experiences.

I posit that the subset of vets who actually 'trained to kill' and lived that life for 4-12 years (probably 10% of the veteran population) integrate into society as group at least as well as if not much better than 'veterans' as a whole, and I also posit that the majority of homeless veterans aren't a part of the 'trained to kill' group and had problems while they were in the military that probably kept them out of combat MOS's and led to their pre retirement release from the military.

Most homeless are probably lying when they tell you they are veterans, just like they are lying when they tell you they need the money for gas, etc., but even most homeless who are telling you the truth about being a veteran did not see combat.
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:09 PM
viccortes285 viccortes285 is offline
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I am a Marine Veteran from Nam, most 0341, 0311
In HUE, Combat Marines was with 2/5 in An-Hoa
Not all are fakes! Semper Fi
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:29 PM
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I refuse to give anyone panhandling money. However, I'll be happy to go buy them food.
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  #36  
Old 08-17-2017, 12:57 PM
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I am one of those vets that Termite speaks of in the post above. I was MOS 92B which is medic to all you non-Army types. I was assigned to the 1st Infantry division, 1st Medical Battalion. I never left this country, much less saw combat. Ft. Riley Kansas was as far away from home as I got.

When I was hitch hiking and panhandling back in the late 70's I never claimed to be anything but broke. When I picked up day jobs or picked cherries in Yakima Valley I never claimed to be a veteran.

I would hesitate to call those down and out individuals with their homemade cardboard signs liars. I do not know their past or the demons they carry. Better to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Give where you feel comfortable.
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:28 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by ThermiteTermite View Post
The strict definition of 'veteran' and the common understanding of the word are different. Most homeless who claim they are veterans benefit from the implied meaning that they are 'combat veterans' which is a very small subset of 'veterans.'


Most vets aren't 'trained to kill' beyond initial rifle and grenade quals in basic training. When the US deploys somewhere, well over half of the soldiers deployed do not see, and are not supposed to see, direct combat. Supply/Quartermaster, Communications, Finance, Food Service, Transportation, Medical, etc. make up most of those deployed, so most veterans of Vietnam etc. are likely to not have seen direct combat.

a 'veteran' is anyone who served in the military, wartime or peacetime, so a homeless person who made it through basic training in peacetime, had a Occupational Specialty of personnel clerk, and never left Ft. Jackson and got chaptered out after 18 months is not lying to you if he says he is a veteran.

a wartime veteran is the same guy who never left the US, the only difference is there was a war that some US troops were involved in somewhere during the 18 months he was clerking in South Carolina.

Having said that , when someone asking for money tells you he is a 'veteran' the common understanding is that he was humping it through the jungle being ambushed by VC or NVA in the 1960's etc. Very few 'veterans' had that or similar experiences.

I posit that the subset of vets who actually 'trained to kill' and lived that life for 4-12 years (probably 10% of the veteran population) integrate into society as group at least as well as if not much better than 'veterans' as a whole, and I also posit that the majority of homeless veterans aren't a part of the 'trained to kill' group and had problems while they were in the military that probably kept them out of combat MOS's and led to their pre retirement release from the military.

Most homeless are probably lying when they tell you they are veterans, just like they are lying when they tell you they need the money for gas, etc., but even most homeless who are telling you the truth about being a veteran did not see combat.
I believe it is a bit more difficult to know for sure about a given individual than what is described here. Often, whatever your MOS was that you were trained for, may not be what you ended up doing, for example, in Vietnam. I was trained as a Communications Center Specialist (72B), but ended up as an RTO (05B). Nobody bothered to change my MOS, I was just sent to do that instead because that is what was needed.

Trying to guess what somebody's experience was is not straightforward, at least in Vietnam. I would therefore, agree with those posters here who said to give if you feel that you should, rather than trying to guess if the person is telling the truth or not.

As far as "trained to kill" most of us back then just went through 8 weeks of Basic Training and some sort of AIT of varying lengths for our MOS, and then we were shipped off. At least in the Army, when you got to Vietnam, at least if you came in through Tan Son Nhut near Saigon, we stayed in the barracks called "Dodge City" for a few days or maybe up to two weeks or so as we got orders to ship wherever in country. I can honestly tell you, that at least among those guys I was with there, none of that training prepared us for the reality. That was my experience in 1971, though it may have been different for those who came along earlier than that.

Edit: I am not trying to be overly argumentative here, but rather to clarify what I would consider an important point, we can't always "tell a book by its cover". There is certainly possible/probable truth to the post I quoted, so I can't take direct issue with all those points, but there are also other circumstances that make it not quite so black and white either.

In support of the post I quoted, when I went to the VA Medical Center for the first time last year, they told me that they have trouble trying to get Vietnam combat vets to come in, but that a lot of Vietnam ERA vets do make use of their services. They thought that we didn't want anything to do with the government when we got back, and wished to get the message out that we were more than welcome to their services. I went because I had heard on Public Radio, a Marine vet, talking about how we needed to get checked because of the health problems now showing up later in life as a result of the exposure to chemicals and also the relative high incidences of Hepatitis C, resulting from how the shots were administered before we went over. I am really glad that guy was on the radio that day!

Tony
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:55 PM
viccortes285 viccortes285 is offline
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RVN CLASS of 68-70.
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  #39  
Old 08-17-2017, 05:50 PM
ThermiteTermite ThermiteTermite is offline
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Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
I believe it is a bit more difficult to know for sure about a given individual than what is described here. Often, whatever your MOS was that you were trained for, may not be what you ended up doing, for example, in Vietnam. I was trained as a Communications Center Specialist (72B), but ended up as an RTO (05B). Nobody bothered to change my MOS, I was just sent to do that instead because that is what was needed.

Trying to guess what somebody's experience was is not straightforward, at least in Vietnam. I would therefore, agree with those posters here who said to give if you feel that you should, rather than trying to guess if the person is telling the truth or not.

As far as "trained to kill" most of us back then just went through 8 weeks of Basic Training and some sort of AIT of varying lengths for our MOS, and then we were shipped off. At least in the Army, when you got to Vietnam, at least if you came in through Tan Son Nhut near Saigon, we stayed in the barracks called "Dodge City" for a few days or maybe up to two weeks or so as we got orders to ship wherever in country. I can honestly tell you, that at least among those guys I was with there, none of that training prepared us for the reality. That was my experience in 1971, though it may have been different for those who came along earlier than that.

Edit: I am not trying to be overly argumentative here, but rather to clarify what I would consider an important point, we can't always "tell a book by its cover". There is certainly possible/probable truth to the post I quoted, so I can't take direct issue with all those points, but there are also other circumstances that make it not quite so black and white either.

In support of the post I quoted, when I went to the VA Medical Center for the first time last year, they told me that they have trouble trying to get Vietnam combat vets to come in, but that a lot of Vietnam ERA vets do make use of their services. They thought that we didn't want anything to do with the government when we got back, and wished to get the message out that we were more than welcome to their services. I went because I had heard on Public Radio, a Marine vet, talking about how we needed to get checked because of the health problems now showing up later in life as a result of the exposure to chemicals and also the relative high incidences of Hepatitis C, resulting from how the shots were administered before we went over. I am really glad that guy was on the radio that day!

Tony
Thanks for a well thought out response, I didn't find it at all argumentative. You brought up at least two points which I did not consider or was not aware of. I failed to consider the fact that many who had non combat MOS's were placed in line units because of personnel shortages, thanks for the reminder.

I concede that the picture is not as black and white as the tone of my post may have suggested.

Regarding the 'trained to kill' question, would you agree that someone who went through Infantry AIT after basic vs. someone who went through Commo AIT would have at least some greater amount of combat related training before going overseas? I know it might not have been much (I heard they were doing Jungle Indoctrination training in Ft. Lewis Washington, of all places.)

Estimates of the ratio of support to combat soldiers in VN have varied from 8:1 to 2:1 so using the most favorable estimate, if someone tells you they were in Vietnam, if they are telling the truth, there is a 2 to 1 chance that they were in a support role, regardless of their designated MOS before they came over.

Of course that doesn't mean their service wasn't notable or that they were never in danger, since many noncombat/accidental deaths occur in theater, and support troops have no guarantee against incidental contact from the enemy, but my impression is that many people upon hearing the term veteran, assume it means 'combat veteran' when it isn't always the case.

I agree we probably get nowhere trying to parse if this or that person was actually there or in combat etc. and it would be better to make a decision on helping that doesn't take that factor in to account, but I like to have some perspective on the issue, especially when I hear it so often from people who ask for money.

I think some people like this guy take advantage of this misconception for their own benefit.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1a/7c/27/1...sty-puller.jpg

he is an extreme example, I will admit.
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  #40  
Old 08-17-2017, 06:20 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by ThermiteTermite View Post
Thanks for a well thought out response, I didn't find it at all argumentative. You brought up at least two points which I did not consider or was not aware of. I failed to consider the fact that many who had non combat MOS's were placed in line units because of personnel shortages, thanks for the reminder.

I concede that the picture is not as black and white as the tone of my post may have suggested.

Regarding the 'trained to kill' question, would you agree that someone who went through Infantry AIT after basic vs. someone who went through Commo AIT would have at least some greater amount of combat related training before going overseas? I know it might not have been much (I heard they were doing Jungle Indoctrination training in Ft. Lewis Washington, of all places.)

Estimates of the ratio of support to combat soldiers in VN have varied from 8:1 to 2:1 so using the most favorable estimate, if someone tells you they were in Vietnam, if they are telling the truth, there is a 2 to 1 chance that they were in a support role, regardless of their designated MOS before they came over.

Of course that doesn't mean their service wasn't notable or that they were never in danger, since many noncombat/accidental deaths occur in theater, and support troops have no guarantee against incidental contact from the enemy, but my impression is that many people upon hearing the term veteran, assume it means 'combat veteran' when it isn't always the case.

I agree we probably get nowhere trying to parse if this or that person was actually there or in combat etc. and it would be better to make a decision on helping that doesn't take that factor in to account, but I like to have some perspective on the issue, especially when I hear it so often from people who ask for money.

I think some people like this guy take advantage of this misconception for their own benefit.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1a/7c/27/1...sty-puller.jpg

he is an extreme example, I will admit.
I would assume that some MOS' did include more combat training than others. As for how many were support vs combat, I don't claim to have any real idea, so I can't really address that. I can only speak from my own experience. I have to admit to not having studied all the stats or really taken an active interest in reading or watching the history of the Vietnam war.

My younger brother, who retired from the Marines a few years ago, served two tours in the Middle East. He is an avid history fan, especially focusing on wars. He only says that, in Vietnam, there were no front lines. There are a lot of places I wasn't, in Vietnam, so I can't speak to others' experiences in other areas, but I have no reason to doubt him, even though his knowledge is from books he read and fellow veterans.

I do recall, that while I was in Vietnam, Cam Ranh Bay was hit by a "sapper attack". That area had been used for some time as an R and R center as well as another area to process guys coming in/out of the country. So I doubt that anybody was really "safe" anywhere in country. Long Binh had a large base. I went through there once and it seemed more "stateside" than the places I ended up in. However, I can't say that those guys were necessarily "safe" either.

Great conversation, by the way.

Thanks,

Tony
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  #41  
Old 08-17-2017, 07:47 PM
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As an Army veteran I don't think we veterans should be treated any differently than anyone else. We did our duty, and I am proud that I was able too do so, and to be counted as an old soldier. But I never have felt we deserve any more than anyone else. Except for the GI bill which was earned.
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  #42  
Old 08-17-2017, 07:55 PM
viccortes285 viccortes285 is offline
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As an Army veteran I don't think we veterans should be treated any differently than anyone else. We did our duty, and I am proud that I was able too do so, and to be counted as an old soldier. But I never have felt we deserve any more than anyone else. Except for the GI bill which was earned.


Agreed, Never knew a Marine I served with ever ask for most anything for themselves. We joined, served my Country and I feel good. It is a personal thing. I want nothing from anyone for being a Veteran.
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  #43  
Old 08-17-2017, 08:26 PM
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I don't claim to have an answer to the OP's dilemma but would like to relate a story that falls under three categories:

1) You never know about people

2) Where one starts in the military is not necessarily where one ends up

3) Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut rather than making idle conversation

In 1973 I was a college grad, member of the Virginia Air Force National Guard, and part owner of a small bicycle shop in Williamsburg, VA. There are a number of military installations in that part of Virginia (including Camp Peary, a CIA training base) so it was not unusual to see/interact with soldiers/sailors. One particular service member stationed at a local army base became a regular customer at the bike shop and I went riding with him occasionally. I didn't know anything about him but I remember him telling me that he'd been a chopper pilot in Viet Nam. While thinking, wow that's definitely a high risk military assignment, I did not say what I was thinking, "Man, you're fortunate to have made it back in one piece."

Fast forward-I sold my interest in the bike shop which eventually became a parking lot, and I left the area. I remembered his name because he had the same name as my college roommate and much later learned the following about him:

Captain Robert T. White, Transportation Corps, distinguished himself by meritorious service in connection with military operations against an opposing force while serving as a Prisoner of War in the Republic of Vietnam and Cambodia from 15 November 1969 to 1 April 1973. During this period, Captain White performed duties in such a manner as to maintain good order and discipline. Captured in the jungles of the Republic of Vietnam, he endured periods of interrogation, starvation, inadequate or nonexistent medical care and was provided totally inadequate shelter. Because of the frustration and hatred built up in his mind over the long years and the constant harassment of the Vietnamese, many difficult situations arose which required perseverance, endurance, and ingenuity. With calm tenacious effort, he overcame those obstacles and never wavered in loyalty to his country. Throughout this period, he exhibited outstanding professional skill, knowledge, and leadership while suffering physical pain and mental stress. HIs behavior and performance as a Prisoner of War in the face of an armed enemy clearly marked him as an exceptional soldier and American. His resistance to enemy pressure was often accomplished at grave risk of personal bodily harm. Captain White's courage, aggressiveness, and leadership by example were in the highest traditions of the military service and reflected great credit upon himself, the military service and the United States of America.

Captain White (subsequently promoted to major) was the last POW to return to the US from captivity in Viet Nam http://www.veterantributes.org/Tribu...?recordID=2320

You just never know.....
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  #44  
Old 08-17-2017, 10:03 PM
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A lot of well thought out answers here, makes for interesting reading. I don't give to panhandlers, sign saying they are a vet or not. I am also a vet who thinks it makes no difference, because you aren't really doing them any favors.

The rest of the conversation about draft vs volunteer, killer or in the rear with gear I find interesting too. I just hope my view isn't deleted. Being in the military or law enforcement is a job that is true. But we need both and the majority of people who take these jobs do so with noble intentions, no matter what their particular job or duty station is. They do their jobs, try to make the world a better place and hope our leaders make wise decisions, as the troops will be the first to bear the cost of any decision.

I salute all those people who serve and have served.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by offkey View Post
As an Army veteran I don't think we veterans should be treated any differently than anyone else. We did our duty, and I am proud that I was able too do so, and to be counted as an old soldier. But I never have felt we deserve any more than anyone else. Except for the GI bill which was earned.
Most of us went on to become very productive and contributing members of society without expecting any special treatment. As a whole, veterans are well prepared to handle the discipline of a job, such as showing up on time, taking orders, and getting things done as needed. In other words, we grew up, largely as a result of being in the military.

I suspect those veterans expecting special treatment of any kind are a small minority, and discussions such as this thread tend to focus on, and magnify that minority so the perceptions don't always mirror the reality.

Tony
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