Nuts and Saddles

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by AA&E

I believe it will make a definite differance on the saddle. I believe it will make a difference on open strings on the nut. I don't believe bridge pins will make a difference. The strings vibration end points are the saddle and nut (or fret on fretted strings)... I don't believe the bridge pins could possibly have any significant impact on transmission of vibrations into the top. These are just my opinions based upon personal experience.

Read my post. The pins don't affect the transmission of vibrations, they change the weight of the top, and THAT makes a difference. The greater the difference in the weight of the pins, the more effect it will have.

[Spook]

I recently changed the nut on a Taylor 415 from tusq to bone. I couldn't hear any difference. Went to tusq bridge pins on a D28. Better durability. No audible differences. I do want to make a MOP nut at some point but not for tone.

Chasing tone is good and fun. When I'm done with real and apparent tone changers like strings, picks, length of nails, left hand and right hand technique, scale, different guitars, and amplification, I might consider other things. Or not.

Saddles are different. Bone is demonstrably brighter than ebony for floating bridges. One day I would like to try an ebony saddle in a flat top.

[Spook]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Read my post. The pins don't affect the transmission of vibrations, they change the weight of the top, and THAT makes a difference. The greater the difference in the weight of the pins, the more effect it will have.

Umm.. wait. The top, consists of wood, glue, braces, bridge, bridge plate. Wouldn't the weight difference between one set of bridge pins and another would be quite tiny relative to the overall assembly?

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Spook

Umm.. wait. The top, consists of wood, glue, braces, bridge, bridge plate. Wouldn't the weight difference between one set of bridge pins and another would be quite tiny relative to the overall assembly?

Maybe, maybe not. Plastic pins are pretty light, while brass pins are not so light. Sometimes a tiny difference is significant, sometimes it is not.

Everyone has different ears, just like every guitar is different. Some people will hear a difference, some will not.

[robj144]

Since the saddle is the main transmission mechanism to the soundboard and the nut only slightly affects the neck, the saddle is much more important in my opinion.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Spook

Saddles are different. Bone is demonstrably brighter than ebony for floating bridges. One day I would like to try an ebony saddle in a flat top.

Plenty of early 20th Century factory guitars were made with both ebony nuts and saddles.

They're okay, but harder materials like bone tend to be more lively-sounding. There are good reasons why these appointments are no longer commonly made of ebony.

But it's easy to test for yourself, as I have. Ebony and rosewood both work well for bridges for arched top instruments like mandolins and archtop guitars, but they seem to be a bit flaccid-sounding when used for flattop guitar bridge saddles.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[UcanDoit]

I went to a seminar by a well-known luthier who did a great job of explaining why guitars sound different. His words were “materials used to build a guitar are SUBTRACTIVE” They remove or absorb/deaden sounds from the vibrating strings. The less subtractive the materials used, the better or more range of highs and lows will emanate from the instrument. He showed us a great example, he dropped nuts on the floor so we could hear the sound they made. Each material had a different sound, with plastic making almost no sound at all. The one with the highest “ping” as it bounced would transmit the most highs and lows into the neck and out of the guitar.
Some of you say the nut does not matter other than on the open strings. Try this and see what really happens, fold a towel or handkerchief and slide it under the strings at the nut end and the 1st & 2nd frets, now play some bare chords and listen to how dead the sound is. You can do the same thing with the area between the saddle and pins. Surprising, huh?
Bottom line is, everything used on the instrument will make a difference, the wood, the glue, the strings, the saddle, the nut, the finish, the bracing, how you hold it and on and on. Will you notice the difference of changing the nut or pins? Maybe, maybe not. Will it make a difference? With the right equipment (accelerometers mounted on the front, back, head, bridge) playing and then recording the data, make a change and do it again, there will be differences. I'm sure it can be seen with good mics and a scope display too.

Enjoy the adventure, it's a constant learning Experience.

ERIK

[Fire&Rain]

Oh -- I thought from the subject line that this might be a thread about cowboys and their riding comfort, or at least a discussion about "cowboy chords"...

[Twinpeaksbirds]

Interesting thread. I don't have much to add except for this: I changed the strings on one of my guitars over the weekend. The bridge pin hole for the E string is worn and the bridge pin didn't seat quite right. I only realized this when I started to play the guitar, as the low E string didn't ring out the way the other five strings did. I reseated it correctly, and the problem went away.

Originally Posted by UcanDoit

. . .Some of you say the nut does not matter other than on the open strings. Try this and see what really happens, fold a towel or handkerchief and slide it under the strings at the nut end and the 1st & 2nd frets, now play some bare chords and listen to how dead the sound is. . . .

This sounds like an interesting test. I think I'm going to try it later - but it seems that it's not just a Nut test, but an "everything to the left of the towel" test - testing the transmition of the vibration from the entire head to the body (the nut, of course, would be the most important part).

[Bikewer]

As we can see from the already-wildly-different replies.... This seems to be very much subjective.

I agree that regarding bridge pins, the only conceiveable difference is the weight, and that would be the difference in weight between the different sorts of pins as compared to the entire vibrating top structure...Which is miniscule.

I would submit that with the exception of brass, all the various materials, bone, ivory, tusq, plastic, ebony....are within a few grains of each other.

I also submit that much of this "well I can hear a difference even if you can't" business is simply a form of one-upmanship.
"I have better, more-sensitive, more artistic, (etc...) ears than you..."

The only way to determine these things is by empirical testing. Controlled conditions conducted in a scientific manner. Same guitar, same strings, same force applied to the strings, etc, etc.... The ONLY variable being the item that's the point of contention, that being bridge pins or nuts or whatever.
Put the guitar on a wave-form analyzer or whatever sort of electronic testing device is appropriate. See if there's a difference...AND, see if that difference is within the range of human hearing.

[Rodger Knox]

A set of plastic pins is 2.7 grams. A set of ebony pins is 4.5 grams.
A typical rosewood belly bridge is 25 grams, and ebony is 35 grams.
The pins can be significant, a couple of grams of weight at the bridge location can make a difference.

[Gasworker]

I also submit that much of this "well I can hear a difference even if you can't" business is simply a form of one-upmanship.
"I have better, more-sensitive, more artistic, (etc...) ears than you..."

Interesting point. I quite willingly admit that I can't detect subtle tone changes most people hear by using a Tonerite or Martin PB lights vs D'Addario PB lights. I assume i wont hear the difference between bone bridges and TUSQ. I play the same guitar every day so if it has opened up I didn't notice, but i appreciate its sound today as much as the day i got it. I know I have damaged hearing but I can change tone by using different flat picks or steel finger picks over my plastic Alaskan picks. I don't doubt for one second that superior hearing picks up all of the reported changes and besides, I like reading others opinions on the subject.