Nut width - what is Too Wide?

[David Hilyard]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

You play the string spacing, and not the overall nut width.

That said (for the thousandth time), I have small hands but prefer a 1-13/16" overall nut width on a steel-string.

One other thing to consider in a discussion based on nut width and perhaps comparing classicals, which just get going at 2"; that is, distance between the edges of the strings. Nylon strings have a much larger diameter than steel-strings, and so you need to consider more than the center-to-center distance with each string. You also need to consider how much space is between each string, which is the edge-to-edge distance from string to string.


I don't have one to measure here, but I'll bet that the string-edge to string-edge distance on a 1-7/8" steel-string (with "normal" E to E spacing for that overall width) is *greater than* the string-edge to string-edge distance on a 2" wide nut nylon (even considering the low E and A strings on the steel). I'll bet the 1-13/16" steel is more like a 2" nylon in this one regard.

Just one man's perspective...

Interesting points, Larry. I agree that it's the spacing between the strings that's the important parameter, it's just easier to refer to one measurement to get the approximate fit. Nut width has become that gauge, and more recently, string width at the saddle, for a more complete picture.

I do have a classical with a 2.0" nut width and a steel string with a 1 7/8" nut width, so thought I'd measure to see if your guess was right. Of course, it could be anything, depending on the builder and how much distance they chose to be inboard of the edge of the fingerboard when they cut the nut slots for each E string, so that has to be considered.

I used a mm scale since I'm used to mm and it's easier for me. My Prisloe classical nut is 50.8mm (2.0'') and the E to E distance, measuring outside string edge to outside string edge is 44mm, or 1.732". My Mustapick baritone has a nut width of 47.6mm (1.875" which is 1 7/8") and the E to E distance, again outside to outside, is 42.5mm, or 1.673".

In this case, even with the larger diameter strings, the overall string distance is greater on the classical than on the steel string, with the 1/8" (0.125") or 3.175mm difference between the nut widths. The nut width is 3.17mm wider and the string spacing is about half that at 1.5mm. Wider is wider, in this case.

I've often wondered how sensitive we are to that width and I do suspect it's string to string and that spacing, more than overall, but they do work together. For the complete spec, measuring the distance between each string on a classical and then on a steel string and comparing, would be more conclusive. Then, you'd have to specify what gauge/hardness you used in both cases.

If anyone is still reading, I'd be amazed. Ha!

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by David Hilyard

Interesting points, Larry. I agree that it's the spacing between the strings that's the important parameter, it's just easier to refer to one measurement to get the approximate fit. Nut width has become that gauge, and more recently, string width at the saddle, for a more complete picture.

I do have a classical with a 2.0" nut width and a steel string with a 1 7/8" nut width, so thought I'd measure to see if your guess was right. Of course, it could be anything, depending on the builder and how much distance they chose to be inboard of the edge of the fingerboard when they cut the nut slots for each E string, so that has to be considered.

I used a mm scale since I'm used to mm and it's easier for me. My Prisloe classical nut is 50.8mm (2.0'') and the E to E distance, measuring outside string edge to outside string edge is 44mm, or 1.732". My Mustapick baritone has a nut width of 47.6mm (1.875" which is 1 7/8") and the E to E distance, again outside to outside, is 42.5mm, or 1.673".

In this case, even with the larger diameter strings, the overall string distance is greater on the classical than on the steel string, with the 1/8" (0.125") or 3.175mm difference between the nut widths. The nut width is 3.17mm wider and the string spacing is about half that at 1.5mm. Wider is wider, in this case.

I've often wondered how sensitive we are to that width and I do suspect it's string to string and that spacing, more than overall, but they do work together. For the complete spec, measuring the distance between each string on a classical and then on a steel string and comparing, would be more conclusive. Then, you'd have to specify what gauge/hardness you used in both cases.

If anyone is still reading, I'd be amazed. Ha!

I read it. Cool, thanks.

I'm curious, what's the distance at the nut between the low E string and the A string, edge to edge...on both guitars.

[patticake]

i'm a fairly small woman with fairly small hands, and i prefer 1 3/4" or 1 7/8". a little wider can be okay depending on the neck profile.

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

You play the string spacing, and not the overall nut width.

That said (for the thousandth time)...

Just one man's perspective...

Although I listen to the spacing, I play the string.

Yes, I have heard you say that and have seen you write it but, ya know, the string spacing is the one thing that we can change after we get the guitar in hand - you cannot change the bridge spacing, the width of the fingerboard at the 13th fret, or the color of the purfling, but you can change the string spacing of the nut. Best to spec both, I s'pose.

I found the Bourgeois "Martin Simpson" one of the most comfortable guitars that I've played with regard to a sense of spacious real estate on the fingerboard. The Gallagher GC-70 custom is currently more comfortable than my Grimes - apparently due only to neck profile (more full) since the rest of the numbers are much the same.

I do need to play some more guitars at the other end of the size range to learn the limitations. So far, I have yet to see only one nod to the idea that some reaches may be exacerbated by increased width. On the other hand (actually the same hand), my fingers are proportionally thick at the tips and crowding is an issue - it is very difficult, for instance for me to stack three fingers adjacent to one another at the same fret and move one freely (as in passing through an Asus4 in standard tuning).

Yes, I am still reading. And thinking...

Thanks to all.

[David Hilyard]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

I read it. Cool, thanks.

I'm curious, what's the distance at the nut between the low E string and the A string, edge to edge...on both guitars.

Hi Larry. Good Point. Similar diameter strings should give a truer picture of spacing.

I'm mixing units here, again, but it's what I have at home to measure with. My mm scale shows on the classical, the spacing outside to outside bass E to A is 10mm. On the steel string, same measurement is 9mm. That's just shy of 3/64" difference, with the classical being wider.

I wondered about the diameter of the strings. I measured with an inch micrometer and got 0.054" on the E for the classical and 0.056" for the steel string, or nearly the same. In mm I wouldn't be able to see the difference on the scale I used because that would be 0.05mm and I can resolve by eye perhaps only 0.25mm. The A string on the classical is 0.035" in diameter and on the steel string it's 0.041".

So even with the larger diameter strings on the steel string, the spacing is about 3/64" narrower than on the classical. Again, wider nut = wider string spacing.

If I had a caliper at home, I could make a chart for each string spacing, and do it all in the same unit of measure, so it wouldn't be so confusing. Still, I think it would show, wider nut = wider string spacing.

[Tone Gopher]

This is something that some bass players are especially sensitive to - the spacing between strings at the nut and bridge is sometimes varied to create equal space between strings rather than equal spacing between the centers of the strings. Is is more apparent, as you note, for thicker strings.

[Larry Pattis]

Yeah, my local guy/wizard lutheier and repair tech, Dennis Berck, will always ask if you want the string edges spaced evenly, or the center-to-centers spaced evenly. On my instruments I porefer the latter.

...and I'm talking about (earlier) measuring the distance between the two "adjoining" edges of any two strings...I'm not sure Mr. Hilyard has done that...?

[David Hilyard]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Yeah, my local guy/wizard lutheier and repair tech, Dennis Berck, will always ask if you want the string edges spaced evenly, or the center-to-centers spaced evenly. On my instruments I porefer the latter.

...and I'm talking about (earlier) measuring the distance between the two "adjoining" edges of any two strings...I'm not sure Mr. Hilyard has done that...?

No, Mr. Pattis, I didn't measure the "inside" spacing because you asked for the "outside" spacing (most recently). So, I just did that. The inside distance (adjacent strings and adjoining edges) spacing between the E and A on my classical is 8.5mm. On my steel string, it's 7.0mm. The 1.5mm difference remains. Wider nut = wider spacing.

I'd do the rest, but it's a nice day out and I'm getting out in it.

[JackInTheGreen]

I sometimes wonder if the original Delta Blues players had any choices. What was a coveted guitar for those guys? We live in good times, yes? And I'll take an 1 3/4" low oval please.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by David Hilyard

No, Mr. Pattis, I didn't measure the "inside" spacing because you asked for the "outside" spacing (most recently). So, I just did that. The inside distance (adjacent strings and adjoining edges) spacing between the E and A on my classical is 8.5mm. On my steel string, it's 7.0mm. The 1.5mm difference remains. Wider nut = wider spacing.

I'd do the rest, but it's a nice day out and I'm getting out in it.

Thanks for that, David...sorry for the mis-communication, I don't think I specified (earlier), but I *did* intend to ask for that "inside" spacing (the distance between strings at the nut), not outside...I'll blame the difficulties of wording things properly for that!

Information is golden, and yes, it's nice to have great choices in this day and age...

[David Hilyard]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Thanks for that, David...sorry for the mis-communication, I don't think I specified (earlier), but I *did* intend to ask for that "inside" spacing (the distance between strings at the nut), not outside...I'll blame the difficulties of wording things properly for that!

Information is golden, and yes, it's nice to have great choices in this day and age...

Hey Larry. Sorry I got snippy, there. It wasn't necessary. Anyway, the measurements are of course just unique to my instruments.

Have a great day!