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Old 09-11-2014, 12:03 AM
Marcus Wong Marcus Wong is offline
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Default Help withwith my Lowden 40th Anniversary wood combination!

Hi there,

I'm looking for some advice on wood combinations for my Lowden 40th Anniversary Limited Edition. My build will be the 'O' or Jumbo sized Lowden, with an Armrest Bevel and a Fanned Fret option. My original combination was Sinker Redwood top with Ancient Cuban Mahogany back and sides. However I've been thinking about it and the plain look of the Cuban has been on my mind for quite a while now (as in I do not find it attractive). I've checked with my dealer and he says there is still time to make changes so I thought I would consult you guys!

I mainly play modern finger style with my nails. Altered/dropped tunings, hammers, harmonics, percussion. Basically the style of a lot of the Candyrat artists.

Aesthetics wise, I'm considering Ziricote and Cocobolo. And MAYBE Honduras Rosewood (the more figured ones). I am not considering Koa though. Ultimately, tone is the deciding factor. If I'm convinced that Cuban Mahogany is significantly more suitable for my use I'll still go with it despite the looks. I'm open to other woods options but am mainly considering those for their aesthetic appeal.

I am also open to other top wood recommendations. I know this is probably this will spark the Mahogany vs Rosewood debate. So I guess I'll want to know whether you guys feel that a high overtone content is not ideal for finger style since it could get messy? From what I've read, Cocobolo and Ziricote do have lower overtone content compared to EIR but I want to know to what extent and how does it compare to Cuban Mahogany since Cuban has higher overtone content than Honduras/American Mahogany.

Cocobolo seems to be compared to a Koa with more pronounced bass and treble, while Ziricote is EIR which is less dark with more clarity of Macassar Ebony. But again I would like to know how that compares to Cuban Mahogany. Cuban is denser has the more pronounced bass of EIR and has the reverby quality of Brazilian while maintaining the clarity of Mahogany. This is what my research has come up with.


Appreciate all and any opinions and advice
Marcus Wong.
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:50 AM
Simon Fay Simon Fay is offline
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Hi Marcus,
You will likely get a lot of advice but I can promise you -- that as a guitar builder who has built with a wide variety of tonewoods -- I really do know what I'm talking about.

My main advice is to not dwell on nuances of tone -- it is a meaningless quest, especially since these "tonal descriptions" are highly subjective. Understand the basic generalities that accompany the various tonewood species and go for what you think you will most like tonally and that will appeal to you visually.

Bottom-line is that the vast majority of players prefer Spruce/Rosewood - the style of music usually doesn't matter as this "sound" is what most players prefer regardless. Cocobolo is a Rosewood and will sound very similar to Brazilian Rosewood and Indian Rosewood -- I feel it falls in between them tonally. Any Spruce with any Rosewood species will yield a very versatile guitar that will work wonderfully with fingerstyle.

For a Redwood top, I generally recommend not going with Rosewood as the sound can be extremely lush to the point of losing clarity. Walnut is a superb back/side wood for Redwood as are the Mahoganies. Cuban Mahogany will sound very much like your typical Mahogany -- it will not sound like Rosewood. It might give you a bit more complexity but not much.

In other words, I would strongly recommend going with a Spruce/Rosewood or with a Redwood with Walnut/Koa/Tasmanian Blackwood/Mahogany. You can go with something like Ziricote or Ebony with Redwood but you will definitely be ending up with an extremely lush sounding instrument. You may like an extremely lush sound but Lowden's are not exactly the most crystal clear instruments out there and are known for the airy, complex tone. The best thing is of course, to try several different Lowden wood combinations and decide what you like best but the above advice should point you in the right direction.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:27 AM
Marcus Wong Marcus Wong is offline
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Hi Simon,

Thank you for such an informative reply! From what I understand, you've simplified my quest down to whether I want a Spruce or Redwood top and then I can proceed on choosing my back and sides from there on?

From your experience which would you recommend out of the Lowden line? I heard that Cedar is their signature sound board which is tonally closest to Redwood. When choosing between the back and sides that you have grouped together, would you recommend I pick according to what appeals most to me visually then? I really have no way to try out such exotic woods in a Lowden here in my country :/

Doesn't the velocity of sound of Redwood vs Spruce differ enough to make one more suited to a specific style? For example if I wanted to play gently would the spruce be able to respond as well as a redwood top? Or is that just another meaningless quest that people like to debate over? I tend to play within the soft to medium attack range. I hardly dig in except for the occasional explosive notes. Also in regards to harmonics which would you recommend.

I hope I'm not being too difficult!

Thanks again
Marcus Wong.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:36 AM
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rogthefrog rogthefrog is offline
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Given the style you described, I would go with spruce and cocobolo. Maybe spruce and ziricote. But not a redwood top.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:38 AM
Marcus Wong Marcus Wong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogthefrog View Post
Given the style you described, I would go with spruce and cocobolo. Maybe spruce and ziricote. But not a redwood top.
Any specific reason why? and which spruce would you go for? Sitka, Alpine or Adirondack?
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Old 09-11-2014, 03:00 AM
ewh2 ewh2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Wong View Post

I mainly play modern finger style with my nails. Altered/dropped tunings, hammers, harmonics, percussion.
Sounds like the Thomas Leeb model would fit your needs which has Walnut b/s that was designed specifically for the type of music mentioned

http://www.georgelowden.com/page1/pa...homasleeb.html

I'd have a look at the combination of tonewoods used there, which is Sitka.

It might sound obvious but I'd recommend asking the team at Lowden too, I'm sure they'd have a great idea to what tonewoods would fit your description.
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Old 09-11-2014, 03:14 AM
Marcus Wong Marcus Wong is offline
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Hi ewh2,

I know it is kind of superficial but I'm not too keen on the look of walnut. But it is good to hear your opinion. It is making me think more about spruce. Since a lot of artists use it. Mike Dawes, Andy McKee and Don Ross too.

I would ask them but the response from Lowden from my experience is quite slow and not informative enough for my liking. (not to slander them, just stating my observations. If I didn't like the company overall I wouldn't be buying their anniversary guitar :P I would give them the benefit of doubt and accredit it to their busy schedule). Their recommendation was sitka with Honduran rosewood. Though there wasn't any mention of tone or qualities.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
My main advice is to not dwell on nuances of tone -- it is a meaningless quest, especially since these "tonal descriptions" are highly subjective. Understand the basic generalities that accompany the various tonewood species and go for what you think you will most like tonally and that will appeal to you visually.
Great advice from a great builder, and keep in mind while it is important to focus on the back/sides wood, the soundboard is hugely important. I'm a cedar/redwood fan, and like it with rosewood for all the complexities that this combination offers.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:33 AM
Marcus Wong Marcus Wong is offline
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ukejon, do you ever find it too complex or lush with all those overtones? Especially with inherently complex pieces? Would you say there is a specific place for such complexity or is it versatile?
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:59 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Wong View Post
I mainly play modern finger style with my nails. Altered/dropped tunings, hammers, harmonics, percussion. Basically the style of a lot of the Candyrat artists.
Most of them play guitars with a spruce top.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Wong View Post
I am also open to other top wood recommendations. I know this is probably this will spark the Mahogany vs Rosewood debate. So I guess I'll want to know whether you guys feel that a high overtone content is not ideal for finger style since it could get messy?
There are bazillions of fingerstyle players who play guitars with rosewood back and sides. In fact, it is probably the most popular choice by a wide margin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Wong View Post
From what I've read, Cocobolo and Ziricote do have lower overtone content compared to EIR but I want to know to what extent and how does it compare to Cuban Mahogany since Cuban has higher overtone content than Honduras/American Mahogany.

Cocobolo seems to be compared to a Koa with more pronounced bass and treble, while Ziricote is EIR which is less dark with more clarity of Macassar Ebony. But again I would like to know how that compares to Cuban Mahogany. Cuban is denser has the more pronounced bass of EIR and has the reverby quality of Brazilian while maintaining the clarity of Mahogany. This is what my research has come up with.
I would disregard these two paragraphs entirely and simply listen to Simon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Fay View Post
My main advice is to not dwell on nuances of tone -- it is a meaningless quest, especially since these "tonal descriptions" are highly subjective. Understand the basic generalities that accompany the various tonewood species and go for what you think you will most like tonally and that will appeal to you visually.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:15 AM
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Even though you've got questions and decisions yet to be made, I think you are actually quite far along since you have selected your builder and the body size/style. In my mind, those are the biggest factors in what you will end up with for tone and playability.

I'd select the top next, and I was wondering if your soft/medium fingerstyle attack would be a significant factor in that choice. I don't have the knowledge of Lowden's to know how responsive their jumbos are to a light playing style. The guitar's responsiveness and your playing style may be a significant factor is choosing the top wood.

Only you can decide what is, and isn't, an acceptable and desireable aesthetic. There are some walnuts (claro) which can have great figure and color. Also, some woods that don't have a striking visual appeal from a distance may have have a wonderful texture to the grain when viewed closely (i.e. mahogany).

Regarding Cuban Mahogany, I really like it. Cuban is typically more dense than Honduran mahogany, and my set happens to be an extremely dense set. Tonally, I think Cuban is a bit different than Honduran, but not too much different. I think it has a bass that is a bit more focused, yet a bit more complex. The bass may move towards a rosewood tone, but not into the 'dark' sound nor the reverby sound of some rosewood guitars. There may be a bit less damping of treble overtones compared to Honduran, but in general the trebles have the characteristics of a mahogany guitar. I don't hear the metalic/crystalline/zingy trebles that some rosewoods exhibit.

From what I remember of the 'old salvaged' Cuban mahogany that Lowden has, there doesn't seem to be a lot of figure seen from a distance. However, it may look fantastic close up. Also, not all Cuban mahogany is boring:

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Old 09-11-2014, 08:57 AM
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There was a recent thread in the Custom section here on AGF about Redwood and it's various properties which you may find interesting if you hadn't seen it. While I'm no expert, if finances allow, you might explore Lucky Strike Redwood....and that thread touches on this top wood as well.
There are some great videos on UTube from George Lowden describing various wood combinations and tones......you may have seen them?
George's personal favorite combo is Redwood/ African Blackwood.
Good luck with your custom!
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Wong View Post
Any specific reason why? and which spruce would you go for? Sitka, Alpine or Adirondack?
I have one guitar for each of those kinds of spruce and tbh given the other differences between the guitars (shape, size, body woods) I couldn't tell you the difference. The Luthier and their approach to voicing a top make a much larger difference than the specific variety of top wood in a given species, IMO and IME.

I'm recommending spruce over some flavor of rosewood because that's what I personally get the best results from (though I get great tones from an Adirondack spruce/Macassar ebony baritone; samples in my signature). I have an all-mahogany guitar that's great, but not for the style of playing you mentioned. I've also played or heard fabulous redwood-top guitars that were better suited to more traditional playing with long sustained notes. I don't know what it is about spruce, maybe a sharper attack and brightness, but for me it's what works best for the music I write.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:03 AM
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I'm actually intrigued by your choice of Lowden for the style you play. I love Lowdens, and a couple of guys in that style play them (Leeb, Hedges, and a great young player from Taiwan I met last year), but the Lowden sound (and it's distinctive regardless of wood, the same way a Martin has a Martin sound, a Wingert sounds like a Wingert, etc) is not typically associated with that style of playing.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:16 AM
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Hi Marcus,
In my experience, most players prefer a good Spruce/Rosewood guitar over any other combination -- this combination can pretty much do every musical style well.

To keep things simple, just think of the following regarding Spruce

Sitka -- Clear & Fundamental
Adirondack -- Slightly more complex than Sitka
German -- Slightly more complex than Adirondack
Engelmann -- Slightly more complex than German


Any of these tops can be made very responsive. As a general rule, as you go in a more complex tonal direction, the responsiveness of the tops increase but the headroom decreases. Please understand, you will find some Engelmann tops that are as robust as stiff Adirondack. This is why fixating on tonal nuances is often an unwise endeavor.

Any of those tops will go well with any type of Rosewood. If you like the Spruce/Rosewood combination then you will be "happy" with any of those combinations. Yes, you might have a preference but in order to find the perfect combination for you -- you have to play every single wood combination that Lowden makes which would be difficult.


If you like the warmth of cedar and Redwood -- then I would recommend Redwood and Koa. Koa is beautiful and will have a tonality very similar to Walnut and Mahogany.

You might like Redwood with Ziricote or Ebony but in my experience, most players will appreciate the lush sound but find that this timbre is not very versatile. This is why Spruce/Rosewood is just so good -- it will almost always sound very good no matter what you are playing.

Hope that helps.

Best Regards,
Simon
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40th anniversary lowden, cocobolo, cuban mahogany, fanned fret guitars, ziricote

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