First time shopping for a custom

[musictag]

Have been looking for an all solid 640 scale classical (i.e. nylon 12 fret) guitar for a while. Having always seemed to find them right after they were a)bought by someone else or b) taken off the market, I stumbled across a custom builder who mostly/only builds classicals and, as he is still new to the business, is still in my price range. Have heard several sound clips and seen a few videos of his guitars and I'm impressed by their sound. So, I'm very close to 'pulling the trigger' and putting some money down on an order. It just feels very strange to buy a guitar that doesn't even exist yet and I've never heard or played.

Open-ended question here, but wondering what words of advice this group would have to a first time buyer of a custom-made guitar?

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by musictag

Have been looking for an all solid 640 scale classical (i.e. nylon 12 fret) guitar for a while. Having always seemed to find them right after they were a)bought by someone else or b) taken off the market, I stumbled across a custom builder who mostly/only builds classicals and, as he is still new to the business, is still in my price range. Have heard several sound clips and seen a few videos of his guitars and I'm impressed by their sound. So, I'm very close to 'pulling the trigger' and putting some money down on an order. It just feels very strange to buy a guitar that doesn't even exist yet and I've never heard or played.

Open-ended question here, but wondering what words of advice this group would have to a first time buyer of a custom-made guitar?

I've commissioned 3 luthier built steel string guitars. The first two times I had builders who had 'limited' reputation/experience; the third time I had a builder with 30-40 years of experience (classical, steel string, harp guitars, archtop, violins, etc).

I can understand the desire, or need, to select a 'new' builder in hopes of getting a high value (lot of guitar for the money) and be in your budget. This can work, but there is more risk. Have you asked the builder for references (previous customers), and have you talked to these players? Have you asked the builder if he/she has a shop/demo guitar that you could try out?

Are you comfortable sharing the builders name openly on this forum? Folks may be able to give you better responses if they know more of your intent. Feel free to PM me and I could give you more things to consider regarding risks.

You've listed "land of 10,000 taxes" as your location, are you in Minnesota?

[El Conquistador]

Chuck's reply is excellent advice. I would add one thing, this is still a business transaction. I would like to either have a written agreement, or, at the very least, a satisfactory discussion about the way your money is to be handled.

Steve

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Chuck's reply is excellent advice. I would add one thing, this is still a business transaction. I would like to either have a written agreement, or, at the very least, a satisfactory discussion about the way your money is to be handled.

Steve

This is one of the big risks (for the buyer and the builder). How much of a deposit is there when you commission the guitar? Is there another payment at the start of the build, or during the course of the build? Is the full payment due upon completion and prior to the guitar being sent to you? Is there are return policy, and what are the terms for it? (can it be returned for defects in material or workmanship, can it be returned if there are no defects but you just don't like the tone/playability, etc). What happens if you want to return it, but the builder is financially unable to return the funds? What happens if you make a payment or two and the builder does not deliver?

I've listed a number of the risks to the buyer, but to be fair there are probably more risks to the builder (where the buyer does not follow through). I also don't want to suggest that commissioning guitars is too risky; like I said in an earlier post I've done it 3 times. Most all of the builders I am familiar with are extremely honest and trustworthy and have great business practices. I'm just suggesting you think about the risks and make sure you are ok with them; maybe you can minimize them, or maybe a commission isn't for you, or maybe you just need to make sure the builder is the right match for you.

[islandguitar]

I've been on "both sides" ... the "down side" and the up-side of this with a custom luthier built guitar. My first builder was very well known and had my deposit for 6 months....the build actually started....and then personal issues got in the way and I heard, "Fred, I just can't come through for you." Honest and forthright, but so hard to hear after so many months. He eventually repaid my entire deposit and kept his word.
The second time around was fantastic and you can see the name of that builder in my signature. A stroke of luck made this even more wonderful as a fellow AGF'er was the build just ahead of mine. We corresponded at least several times a week with updates about how "our" builder was doing....and of course I followed his intently as he did mine on the next go-round. Tom Doerr knew this was all happening and loved it too......pleased that we had a great connection through his two back to back builds.....and a really nice friendship. The suggestions and observations from this interchange was not only fun, but incredibly helpful and educational! If you do find circumstances where you can be in touch with this builder's current client and exchange a little back and forth about the experience, it would be icing on the cake!
I'm so impressed with Tom Doerr and others I read about here on AGF. Their integrity and client connections are just wonderful.
Best of luck
Fred

[musictag]

ChuckS, yup, MN is home for me as well.

Should clarify that the builder isn't really that "new" - sounds like he's been doing this for several years now. I just get the impression that he doesn't do this to make a living at it, or perhaps maybe moving into making this more of full-time occupation. I haven't posted his name mostly because I wasn't sure of the forum's policies, given the number of builders that sponsor the forum, about bringing up a builder who isn't a sponsor. He does, somewhat, specialize in classical guitars which is also a plus to me.

Thanks for all the advice - lots of good points for me to bring up with the builder.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by musictag

ChuckS, yup, MN is home for me as well.

.....

If you are in the Twin Cities you might want to check out the stock of used classical guitars at the Podium; they have a least 3 under $1500 (I'm not sure of their scale length though). You could also get ahold of the Mn Guitar Society for ideas. They have an open mic once a month at the Underground Music Cafe; if you get there a bit earlier you could ask around. There's also a few used 'luthier built' classicals in the Twin Cities Craigslist in the $1800-$2200 range.

Also, you might want to contact forum member wcap; he's in the Twin Cities and plays steel string and classical guitars.

Lastly, I sent you a private message.

[justonwo]

I would be very careful selecting a builder - very careful, indeed. I would never, ever commission a guitar without playing a few examples of the builder's work first. And, even then, there are risks associated with new builds - stuff that you can't foresee. There are a couple of builders I trust without equivocation (Mike Baranik being one) - builders that can pull off a flawless build without subsequent problems and headaches and with incredible consistency in sound and playability. I would trust Mike to build a guitar of any variety from any materials. I think that Mike is more the exception than the rule.

More often than not, I have had problems with commissioned guitars at one level or another. I've commissioned and received a number of guitars. The less expensive builders with fewer years of experience under their belts only amplify the inherent risk of commissioning a guitar. I would strongly advise that you reconsider commissioning without playing/seeing a few examples first. In my opinion, you are opening yourself up to quite a bit of risk. From a financial standpoint, you would be much better off traveling to a shop like Dream Guitars and playing everything in sight. If you don't like the work product of a lesser known builder, you will almost certainly take a bath on resale (assuming they don't have a return policy).

At a place like Dream Guitars, you could try the work of dozens of builders and buy a guitar with a known tone and build quality.

[s2y]

Builders aside, figure out EXACTLY what you want and how to communicate that with the builder. There's a good amount of disappointment with customs because the guy ordering it didn't know exactly what they wanted.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by s2y

Builders aside, figure out EXACTLY what you want and how to communicate that with the builder. There's a good amount of disappointment with customs because the guy ordering it didn't know exactly what they wanted.

+++++++1. A builder can give you exactly what you ask for, but, if you don't really know what you want, and, you haven't played an example of her/his work, you may end up with a guitar you don't particularly like.

A good strategy is, after choosing a builder, for whatever reason, ask what decisions will be yours to make (strong bass vs strong mids or sparkling highs; neck profile, etc.) then go out and play LOTS of guitars and figure out what you are after. Communicate those choices as coherently as you possibly can, then, get out of the builders way and let him/her build it.

Steve

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by s2y

Builders aside, figure out EXACTLY what you want and how to communicate that with the builder. There's a good amount of disappointment with customs because the guy ordering it didn't know exactly what they wanted.

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

+++++++1. A builder can give you exactly what you ask for, but, if you don't really know what you want, and, you haven't played an example of her/his work, you may end up with a guitar you don't particularly like.

A good strategy is, after choosing a builder, for whatever reason, ask what decisions will be yours to make (strong bass vs strong mids or sparkling highs; neck profile, etc.) then go out and play LOTS of guitars and figure out what you are after. Communicate those choices as coherently as you possibly can, then, get out of the builders way and let him/her build it.

Steve

Even if the buyer knows exactly what he wants, he may not be able translate his desired tone into words. And, even if he can do that, the builder may interpret those words differently than intended.

I think it's wise to find a builder whose 'signature' tone is very close to what the buyer is looking for. Then the builder may be able to adjust it one way or another to get exactly what the buyer wants. When I commissioned my Carruth, Alan sent me a shop/demo guitar, and we used that as a baseline for discussions; what I wanted to be the same and what I'd like to have modified from that baseline. That helped to eliminate at least some of the problems that can be caused by different interpretations of terms used for tonal characteristics.

[iim7V7IM7]

You have received a multitude of informed advise so far, I will a few points that I have not yet seen touched.

Classical guitars are a somewhat different design problem in many respects from steel stringed flat tops. I personally would recommend finding a luthier who has built MANY classical guitars. Mastering these is a repetitive, evolutionary and empirical process.

Some flat top luthiers also make classical guitars and someone like Alan Carruth or Thomas Rein are quite experienced at both types of instruments. Some other classical guitar luthiers who I recommend you research and consider are:

Aaron Green (Alan's former apprentice)
MA
http://www.aarongreenguitars.com/

Peter Oberg
CA
http://www.obergguitars.com/

Michael Thames
NM
http://thamesclassicalguitars.com/

Dake Traphagen
WA
http://www.traphagenguitars.com/

All of them are masters and create guitars with their own voice. Which one is right for you is unfortunately difficult to say.

[Ergoetal]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I would be very careful selecting a builder - very careful, indeed. I would never, ever commission a guitar without playing a few examples of the builder's work first. And, even then, there are risks associated with new builds - stuff that you can't foresee. There are a couple of builders I trust without equivocation (Mike Baranik being one) - builders that can pull off a flawless build without subsequent problems and headaches and with incredible consistency in sound and playability. I would trust Mike to build a guitar of any variety from any materials. I think that Mike is more the exception than the rule.

More often than not, I have had problems with commissioned guitars at one level or another. I've commissioned and received a number of guitars. The less expensive builders with fewer years of experience under their belts only amplify the inherent risk of commissioning a guitar. I would strongly advise that you reconsider commissioning without playing/seeing a few examples first. In my opinion, you are opening yourself up to quite a bit of risk. From a financial standpoint, you would be much better off traveling to a shop like Dream Guitars and playing everything in sight. If you don't like the work product of a lesser known builder, you will almost certainly take a bath on resale (assuming they don't have a return policy).

At a place like Dream Guitars, you could try the work of dozens of builders and buy a guitar with a known tone and build quality.

I absolutely agree with this. If cost is a factor, take a week off, get some good books and take a train. Seriously. The reason is partly because you may not know exactly what you want or don't want until you're compared a number of top-line guitars.

My steel-string example: I ordered a custom Brazilian small-body based on several discussions with the luthier, as well as nice photos. The luthier's not in business anymore, by the way. The resulting guitar looked great and sounded great. But there was a problem I couldn't get over, no matter how hard I tried. The neck was too heavy for the guitar, and the guitar itself was heavier than I'd expected. I ended up selling it for a loss.

Until then I hadn't realized how important the weight and physical balance were to me. So I learned, but it cost me. I realize you likely wouldn't have the same issue with a classical, but what I'm saying is that there may be subtleties -- even the way it sits on your leg, for instance -- that you wouldn't realize until you've actually played the instrument.

[Mary]

I'm not a luthier, but I know a few. So, if I may make a few suggestions with respect to all those luthiers I have met.

*Talk to previous customers! Don't just talk to his son-in-law who might get part of the profit. (Just sayin'.)

*Know your price point. Don't expect your luthier to change his prices to fit your desire. He/she knows what his/her work is worth.

*If possible Know what you want. If you honestly don't really know then that's OK. Just trust the lutheir has experience to guide you into a direction on way or another. Be he a hobby builder or a serious luthier, these people want you to be satisfied with their work.

* Luthiers do not choose to be frustrated by repetitive confusing demands of someone who isn't sure he likes this or that area... after the fact. A guitar build plan can often change in advance, but once something is done it's highly likely to stay that way. If the mistake is his then you must either wait for him to build you another as soon as his schedule permits or allow the mistake,if only a minor change, not a break or faulty work, to become a blessing. A little discount might be found. (Little discount being the key words.)

*Play a few of their instruments or ask other people what they thought.

*Have a descriptive idea of how to explain your playing attack.

*Talk to your luthier in person, by phone or in e-mails until you feel confident that this is the guy/girl for you. If you don't like something about him, his work, his attitude, his personality, his location or you are not totally positive you trust him, then simply don't buy from him. He isn't going to change. There is someone out there just for you.

*Ask questions and expect educated answers.

*If possible visit his/her shop or look on line for a picture or two.

*If you are local to your builder don't visit his shop daily to watch him work. He needs elbow room and every conversation might slow him down. You might go there and think he is doing nothing for you, but he has no desire to watch your glue or finish dry. For your sake you do not want him to rush that part of the process.

*As winter approaches it might wise to ask if your luthier is able to get to his shop daily, weekly or only as weather permits.

*Don't pay your guitar off until you have seen or been told it is ready for shipping. Reputable luthiers will make individual arrangements so don't stress over that.

*However DO expect to pay a non-returnable sizable down payment in advance.

*During the process it's wise to request a few pictures of the process and have some sort of conversation or e-mail contact telling you what has been accomplished .

*YOUR GUITAR WILL NOT BE DONE IN A WEEK. It's not just a box and strings. Allow your luthier to have his own life priorities. Sometimes a guitar must be put aside temporarily. (EXAMPLE: When our dads died everything was put on hold, but it's not always a life and death situation that delays a guitar build. I'm sure any luthier will make contact and let you know his request of more time, but the reason might not be shared with you. He does have a private life.)

*Don't think your luthier's shop portrays his work. There are awesome guitars built in nice shops, but some seriously sloppy products come from those same places and visa verse. (NOTE: My father-in-law barely had a skinny path in a dark dungeon of a wood shop, but his work was superior.)

*Have a serious plan for the final delivery.If you can pick it up it will save you debating on how to make bridge and nut adjustments if you are now confident in your own work. Your luthier can probably fix it in minutes.

*Nothing makes a luthier more sick to his stomach than to have built a beautiful guitar to have a shipping company employee do damage, no matter how minimal the damage. The customer and luthier feel heart broken and disgusted. I have personal experience with tears that have shed. Regardless nobody is to blame, but there are always hurt feelings when life incidents like this happen.


*****************
Again... I'm not a luthier, but I know a few. So, if I may since I saw it suggested in an earlier post, I would definitely highly recommend Mike Baranik. Tim and I highly respect him and greatly admire his work.

(I have also heard the name Thomas Rein, but I don't think I am ever met him or seen his work personally.)

[rogthefrog]

If you can, get to know the builder and have them get to know you. You don't need to be BFFs, but s/he should watch and hear you play the way you normally do. Play guitars you know you like and dislike with the builder present and tell her what specifically you (dis)like about a guitar, live on the spot as you are playing and s/he is watching. That should tell the builder a lot about your personal preferences and criteria and it's a lot easier to communicate "I like this one better because of the treble sound" in person with the instruments than to try to formulate it in words.