Question on singing and placement of capo - Page 2

macmanmatty · #16 02-28-2015, 09:11 PM

Are there people who can only sing or at lest sing better in flat keys. I sing best In keys Ab Bb Cb Db and can't sing in key of C to save my life??

JonPR · #17 03-01-2015, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

Are there people who can only sing or at lest sing better in flat keys.

No. Not due to any physical limitation anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

I sing best In keys Ab Bb Cb Db and can't sing in key of C to save my life??

This doesn't make any sense.
Firstly, if you can sing in Cb, you can sing in B major (5 sharps)! it's the exact same thing

. (And if you like, Db is C#.)
And if you can sing in both Cb (B) and Db, you can certainly sing in C. There's nothing (other than maybe some kind of mental block) to stop you.

Secondly, what limits your singing - as we're saying above - is your range, nothing more. Let's say your lowest comfortable note is Ab (fret 4 string 6), and your highest is Db (fret 2 string 2). You can then sing any pitch between those two notes - any half-step. There's no logical (biological, mental, aural) reason why you could only sing a certain few scales - IOW, you could only place the half-steps at certain points within your range.
Now call those notes G# and C#. What's the difference? Only a theoretical, enharmonic one. (That's the only reason why you'd call B major "Cb", using 7 flats instead of 5 sharps.)

I'm guessing it may be a case of habit on your part. The particular songs you like singing, you've found to be most comfortable in those keys - maybe the originals were in flat keys and you got used to that. So maybe you tune down a half-step, or use a capo - all the time. So naturally the sound of the guitar (tuned down or with a capo on certain frets) will acclimatise your ear to those keys, and you'll tend to want to transpose any new song into one of those key.
A key like C will then feel as unnatural to you as C# (Db) would be to guitarist-singers acclimatised to EADGBE.

But the point is, there's nothing in your voice or your hearing - fundamentally - that limits you in that way. It's only your habits and prejudices.
It's not necessarily a problem, of course. If you really feel you can't sing a song in C, then you have your habitual options of Db or B either side. Likewise, for a song in A, you have the options of Ab or Bb. Of course, you have a bit of a gap between Db and Ab

. I guess you're OK with keys of Eb, F and Gb? But not E or G?

macmanmatty · #18 03-01-2015, 07:16 AM

Keys of F and Eb and Usually Gb are out of my limited range. But I can sing in D, G and A and do sometimes it's just that I sing most much better in flat keys.

JonPR · #19 03-01-2015, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

Keys of F and Eb and Usually Gb are out of my limited range.

Again, that makes no sense.
Keys can't be out of your range. The highest (or lowest) notes or particular songs (in particular keys) will be out of your range. But the keys they are in could be anything.
You can always transpose to bring a song within your range (unless your range is narrower than that of the song, in which case you couldn't sing it at all, in any key). But the key it ends up in might well be F, Eb or thereabouts.

Can you say what your limited range actually is? Lowest and highest notes (referred to guitar)?
I'll bet I can suggest some songs you could sing in the keys of F or Eb - IOW, whose range in that key would be within your range. (I might well have to change the key of the original song to do that, but I suspect there are many that I wouldn't.)
I might also suggest songs in the key of E major, because of course that's between Eb and F, so any problem with those two ought to also apply to E

.

Maybe you can also give me some favourite singers or songs, so I can suggest stuff you already know?
It also might help to clarify the issue if you could mention some songs you find easy to sing, and the keys you currently sing them in.

(I hope you're looking forward to this experiment as much as I am.

)

macmanmatty · #20 03-01-2015, 11:36 AM

My favorite singers are Dwight Yoakam, John Prine (who people say I sing like), Randy Travis, Russell Moore, Merle Haggard.

Songs I Sing really well are sometimes I sing songs in different keys to avoid playing two songs in the same key next to each other when I'm gigging. I know keys can't be out of my range but just for most songs those keys are. I have not found one song where E, Eb, C or F is my best key.

Fish and Whistle -John Prine keys Bb or B (G capo 3/4)
Clay Pigeons -Blaze Foley key of Bb (G capo 3)
Dwight Yoakam- Fair To Midland Keys of A or Bb (G capo 2/3)
Dwight Yoakam - Johnsons Love keys of Ab or A (G capo 1/2)
Merle Haggard - Lonesome Fugitive key of Ab (G capo 1)
John Prine- That's*The way the world Goes Round Key of D (C capo 2)
Dwight Yoakam- Try to to Look so Pretty Db (A capo 4)
John Prine Souvineers key of Ab (D capo 6)
Townes Van Zandt- If I needed You key of B (G / capo 4)
Dwight Yoakam- She Wore Red Dresses Key of A or Ab (E capo 4/ 5)
Merle Haggard -Mama's Hungry eyes Key of A or Bb ( A capo 0 /1)
Randy Travis- On the other Hand Key of Db (C capo 1)

I can list more if you'd like

JonPR · #21 03-01-2015, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

My favorite singers are Dwight Yoakam, John Prine (who people say I sing like), Randy Travis, Russell Moore, Merle Haggard.

Songs I Sing really well are sometimes I sing songs in different keys to avoid playing two songs in the same key next to each other when I'm gigging. I know keys can't be out of my range but just for most songs those keys are. I have not found one song where E, Eb, C or F is my best key.

Fish and Whistle -John Prine keys Bb or B (G capo 3/4)
Clay Pigeons -Blaze Foley key of Bb (G capo 3)
Dwight Yoakam- Fair To Midland Keys of A or Bb (G capo 2/3)
Dwight Yoakam - Johnsons Love keys of Ab or A (G capo 1/2)
Merle Haggard - Lonesome Fugitive key of Ab (G capo 1)
John Prine- That's*The way the world Goes Round Key of D (C capo 2)
Dwight Yoakam- Try to to Look so Pretty Db (A capo 4)
John Prine Souvineers key of Ab (D capo 6)
Townes Van Zandt- If I needed You key of B (G / capo 4)
Dwight Yoakam- She Wore Red Dresses Key of A or Ab (E capo 4/ 5)
Merle Haggard -Mama's Hungry eyes Key of A or Bb ( A capo 0 /1)
Randy Travis- On the other Hand Key of Db (C capo 1)

I can list more if you'd like

No that's a great list, but I'd still like to know what your actual vocal range is, the highest and lowest notes you can sing. (If you don't know, it's easy to check with the guitar.)

But to begin with "Fish and Whistle". The original is in G, and the range is fairly narrow - mostly within a 4th (keynote on the bottom), but heading up to the 5th in the bridge - so would be easily singable for most people in a few different keys. Of course you prefer the feel and sound of it with capo on 3 or 4, which is fine. It's quite natural, for any specific song, to gravitate towards the key where its range sits most comfortably within yours, even if you could stretch higher or lower if pushed.
It'd be interesting to know whether you sing it higher than Prine (3 half-steps up), or 9 half-steps lower!

Clay Pigeons is interesting in comparison, because its range is exactly the same as Fish and Whistle (perfect 5th, keynote at bottom, mostly focussed around the major 3rd), but Blaze Foley sings a little more than an octave lower: in Gb (or F#).
So now I'm guessing you sing both these songs in the same register: you've lowered Prine's octave, or (less likely I suspect) you've raised Foley's - and then, in both cases adjusted for your range. Obviously it makes sense they've both ended up in the same key for you - because the range is the same.

More later

macmanmatty · #22 03-01-2015, 12:17 PM

I've seen John Prine do Fish & Whistle G capo 4

JonPR · #23 03-01-2015, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

I've seen John Prine do Fish & Whistle G capo 4

Quite possible.
Here he is with G shapes capo on 7:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdzdEQOHL_I
So he's singing in key of D, a 4th lower than the studio version - probably because his natural range has lowered with age.
Of course, he could easily have played it in open position using D shapes and no capo, but obviously he likes the G shapes.

I'm guessing the one you saw, he was singing even lower.

This reminds of Dylan and Blowin' in the Wind:
Freewheelin': key D, capo 7, G shapes.
Live (often): key G, open position, singing a 4th higher.

macmanmatty · #24 03-01-2015, 12:51 PM

since I didn't have my bass guitar strung up according to this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IejHKpfHso
my vocal range was B2-A4

skitoolong · #25 03-01-2015, 06:24 PM

Interested spectator here ...

No wonder I can't sing... This stuff is so hard for me to get... Struggling. Great exchange though.

I think.

martingitdave · #26 03-01-2015, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonPR

Quite possible.

Here he is with G shapes capo on 7:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdzdEQOHL_I

So he's singing in key of D, a 4th lower than the studio version - probably because his natural range has lowered with age.

Of course, he could easily have played it in open position using D shapes and no capo, but obviously he likes the G shapes.

I'm guessing the one you saw, he was singing even lower.

This reminds of Dylan and Blowin' in the Wind:

Freewheelin': key D, capo 7, G shapes.

Live (often): key G, open position, singing a 4th higher.

Prine loves G shapes. At least half his songs are played that way. He likes to through the old bluegrass g run in all the time. I played blow up your TV tonight at a gig. Fun!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

macmanmatty · #27 03-01-2015, 10:26 PM

odd other than fish and whistle just about every other John Prine song I know uses C and D shapes.

JonPR · #28 03-02-2015, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

since I didn't have my bass guitar strung up according to this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IejHKpfHso
my vocal range was B2-A4

I thought you said you had a limited range? At nearly two octaves, that's not bad. (Trained classical singers are not expected to have to cover more than two octaves - although of course many can, and even untrained singers can sometimes have impressive ranges.)
Technically it makes you a baritone, more or less (the higher operatic type, although I'm guessing that's not your style

).

It would mean you couldn't sing Clay Pigeons in the original key because it goes too low (down to F#/Gb2) - Foley sounds like a bass to me. Even raising it to Bb or B would put the lowest note right at the bottom of your range. So I'm guessing, therefore, you sing it an octave up.
Same for Fish and Whistle - in key of Bb/B either it's right at the bottom end of your range, or it's (more comfortably) in the top half.
The conclusion here is that you could actually sing either song in one of two octaves in the same key - a rare option. (It's because the range is quite narrow, and your range is quite wide.)
But that also means that - technically - you could sing either song in any key in between. In fact, it looks like key of G (for these two) is bang in the middle of your range - so you should have no problem singing along with Prine in the original studio key, even though there may be other reasons why you like to take it higher.

Here's a chart (prepared at great expense

) to help picture how these ranges sit relative to each other, and to the guitar open strings:

Code:

          your    F&W    CP    Both
          range  orig.  orig. in Bb
        A#4 _
(440Hz)  A4  |
        G#4  | 
         G4  |
        F#4  |                 _
         F4  |                  |
1E       E4  |                  |
        D#4  |     _            |high
         D4  |      |           |octave
        C#4  |      |           |
(mid.C)  C4  |      |           |
2B       B3  |      |           |
        A#3  |      |          _|
         A3  |      |
        G#3  |      |
3G       G3  |     _|
        F#3  |                 _
         F3  |                  |
         E3  |                  |low 
        D#3  |                  |octave
4D       D3  |           _      |
        C#3  |            |     |
         C3  |            |     |
         B2 _|            |     |
        A#2               |    _|
5A       A2               |           
        G#2               |
         G2               |
        F#2              _|
         F2
6E       E2

As I said, coincidentally, both these songs have the same range (5th), and both have the keynote on the bottom.

What I hope that chart will show is that - in truth - pretty much any key should be open to you. Obviously, the bigger the range of the song, the less room you have for manoeuvre; you may only have a choice of 2 or 3 close keys for some songs. And even with easier songs, you're probably going to want to situate their range somewhere in the middle of yours.
But it should also be clear that is IS the range - and not the key - of the song that's the governing factor. The keynote can be anywhere within the range of the song. (It's common for the keynote to be lowest, or near lowest, but also common for the 5th of the scale to be lowest - eg on Happy Birthday, or Amazing Grace, each with an octave range from 5th-5th.)

I'll check out some of your others (this exchange may help others as well as yourself).

My own range, btw, is from E2 at the bottom up to around middle C (C4), maybe further on a good day(night). I'm a bass, therefore (untrained, and pretty weak!)
In my experience, the louder you sing, the higher your range can go - or at least, notes that seem weak at the top will become stronger - while it's hard (at least without training) to put power into the very bottom of your range. When I sing live (not very often...), I've noticed that the keys I find comfortable at home - where I put less effort into the voice - need to be raised a half-step or two. As I raise the volume of my voice, it feels natural to raise the register a little too, though rarely more than a whole step overall.

JonPR · #29 03-02-2015, 05:30 AM

Here's Dylan's two choices (that I know of, there may be more) for Blowin' in the Wind. I don't know what his total range is, but clearly it encompasses both these ranges easily enough:

Code:

             blowin' in the wind
             Freewheelin' / Live
G shapes:     capo 7      / open

         A4  
        G#4   
         G4  
        F#4                 
         F4                 _
1E       E4                  |
        D#4                  |
         D4                  |
        C#4                  |
(mid.C)  C4      _           |
2B       B3       |          |           
        A#3       |          |
         A3       |          |
        G#3       |          |
3G       G3       |         K|
        F#3       |         _|
         F3       |
         E3       |
        D#3       |  
4D       D3      K
        C#3      _|
         C3        
         B2       
        A#2       
5A       A2       
        G#2       
         G2               
        F#2              
         F2
6E       E2

"K" = keynote.
(It's quite common for a low keynote to be supported by the note tone below. At the end of the chorus "in the wind" is D-C#-D, or G-F#-G, depending on key.)

Here's an interesting example:

Code:

Hallelujah    (both in C)
             Leonard  Jeff
              Cohen  Buckley

         A4  
        G#4   
         G4  
        F#4                 
         F4            _
1E       E4             |
        D#4             |
         D4             |
        C#4             |
(mid.C)  C4             |
2B       B3             |           
        A#3   _         |
         A3    |        |
        G#3    |        |
3G       G3    |        |
        F#3    |        |
         F3    |        |
         E3    |        |
        D#3    |        |
4D       D3    |        |
        C#3    |        |
         C3   K|       K| 
         B2    |   
        A#2    |   
5A       A2    |   
        G#2    |   
         G2    |          
        F#2    |              
         F2    |
6E       E2   _|

Both sang it in C. So why is the keynote in the middle of Cohen's version, and at the bottom of Buckley's?
Because Buckley (a tenor) sang the verse an octave up from Cohen (a bass), while both sang the chorus in the same register. (The verse covers an octave from E-E, while the chorus goes from C-A, or rather A-C, ending on the low keynote.)
The effect of that is that Buckley's chorus sounds more reflective, intimate and tender, while Cohen (a bass, shooting for the top of his range) sounds more passionate and intense on his chorus. The intensity peak in Buckley's performance comes at the high point of the verses (eg, "baffled king composing..."). (At the very end, he improvises up around that top E, hitting an F a couple of times.)

So that kind of choice can sometimes be an option when covering a song. If there's a high part you can't reach, but the rest is OK, could you sing the high part (the entire section) down an octave? Naturally you need to be aware of the expressive effect of that kind of choice.

Another observation is that sometimes singers (especially in rock) will deliberately choose a key for a song that makes them push their voice uncomfortably high, because a man singing at that peak - or even screaming! - expresses passion and intensity, even if - or maybe because! - the voice threatens to break up there.
It's a habit derived originally from gospel-inspired singers like Little Richard, via the likes of Paul McCartney and Robert Plant.

Meanwhile, guys who want to express intimate seductive qualities will go l-o-o-w...

JonPR · #30 03-02-2015, 06:19 AM

While I'm on this kick, Johnny Cash plays a nice game with keys in I Walk The Line. It's a virtuoso display of the guy's range, especially down into the bass; although I suspect it was done tongue-in-cheek to begin with. ("Let's see where we can take this, guys...")

Code:

I Walk The Line
VERSES:        1   2&4   3    5

1E       E4
        Eb4   _          
         D4    |         
        Db4    |         _     
(mid.C)  C4    |          |
2B       B3    |          |            
        Bb3    |          |    
         A3    |          |    
        Ab3    |   _      |  
3G       G3    |    |     |   
        Gb3    |    |     |    
         F3   K|    |     |     
         E3    |    |     | 
        Eb3    |    |    K|   _
4D       D3    |    |     |    |
        Db3    |    |     |    |
         C3   _|    |     |    |
         B2         |     |    |
        Bb2        K|    _|    |
5A       A2         |          |
        Ab2         |          |
         G2         |          |      
        Gb2         |          |
         F2        _|         K|
6E       E2                    |
        Eb2                    |
         D2                    |
        Db2                    |
         C2                   _|

So that's 4 different keys for 5 verses. Going round the circle of 5ths ("walking the line??"

) in the flat direction to start with: F to Bb to Eb (down a 5th then up a 4th). Then back in the reverse direction: down a 4th to Bb, but then - as the piece de resistance - instead of going back up a 5th to his original register, he drops down another 4th, singing an octave down from the first verse. Gaze upon that bottom C in awe, o ye mere mortals!

You'll notice when you listen to the track, how he hums the new keynote before each verse for a few bars, like a drone to get himself tonally centred. This may be because there is no clear modulation from key to key. The changes are all based on "pivot chords" (belonging to both keys) so, to begin with, the chord between the verses (up to verse 3 anyway) sounds like the IV of the previous key. He hums the root, to get himself into the vibe of it being a new tonic (and it's also the first note he needs to sing for the next verse).
After verse 3, it's then the V of the key that becomes the new I.

That's a total range of two octaves and a major 2nd. And while he sounds at his low limit on that bottom C, he sounds comfortable enough on the top D in verse 1 ("for the ties...") that he could probably go higher if he wanted. This is all classic bass register, but extending into contrabass below E.