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  #16  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:18 AM
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brencat brencat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
I have yet to find any written indication that this guitar has Authentic Series bracing. It has VTS bracing, which has been restricted to Authentics, but that is different that Authentic Series bracing profile. Every other CS annual edition has used GE Series bracing, which I suspect is the case here.
The braces and bridge plate aren't tucked on this model. Not sure how much that will change the tone, but just listening to Spoon's demo above already tells me this guitar sounds different than the D-18A.
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  #17  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:46 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Outlaw? If someone will buy it, they will make it. :-) Looks like an interesting guitar. I was discussing this topic with a forum member recently. We were joking that the baby boomers on the guitar forums have become obsessed with mahogany Martins after years of lusting after brazilian rosewood Martins. We chalked up this shift in sonic "taste" to natural age-related high frequency hearing loss. With that in mind, I can see them selling a limited edition expensive guitar that has the aesthetics of a herringbone D28 with mahogany B&S.
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  #18  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:57 PM
musicman1951 musicman1951 is offline
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Nice review. It sure sounds good.
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  #19  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:06 PM
smurph1 smurph1 is offline
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This is one of them "Made in Mexico" jobs, right? LOL
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  #20  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:22 PM
ibassham ibassham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
I know that Collings and maybe Bourgeois have made !8 models with 28 trim. Don't see the point, myself.

Now Martin are messing with their own numbering system and designs.
"17" to indicate year ? C'mon!

I'd prefer to live in a world where a D18 looks like a D-18, a D-28 looks like a D-28 etc.

Who IS making the marketing decisions in that company now?

Seems to me that someone who knows nothing about guitars, Martin's heritage and numbering system is just playing around with possibilities.
You ok, man? Yikes.
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  #21  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:32 PM
jpd jpd is offline
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Originally Posted by smurph1 View Post
This is one of them "Made in Mexico" jobs, right? LOL
...well then, the high cost must be due to the "Tariffs"
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  #22  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:55 PM
OneMansGuitar OneMansGuitar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
I have yet to find any written indication that this guitar has Authentic Series bracing. It has VTS bracing, which has been restricted to Authentics, but that is different that Authentic Series bracing profile. Every other CS annual edition has used GE Series bracing, which I suspect is the case here.
You mean other than my direct quote from Jeff Allen saying it does?

He designed it, and his hands took part in making it. And he says the Outlaw model has Authentic Series top bracing and bridge plate, except they are not tucked.

I was provided access to the actual build sheets used to make the instrument, and to make the Bluegrass-16. These are different from the spec sheets they show on line or send to customers.

I was asked not to make the specific contents public. But I can say some things.

They have the same X brace pattern, (5/16, DOMLE #3A) but the Bluegrass is designated specifically as "GE" for Golden Era.

And after each listing like Tone Bar, Cross Brace, etc. it says GE.

The Outlaw is designated "Hnd Shp" for Hand Shape, for the Top Brace, Cross Brace, Side Brace, and the specific dimensions of the tone bars are different.

In the Tone Bar specs it says "S" for scalloped followed by three numbers, .### x .### x .###

Each of those numbers are different than the numbers on the Bluegrass model.

At the end of the specific specs for Tone Bar, Bridge Plate, and Side Brace, it says (NO TUCK)

And where a portion of the Bluegrass bridge plate specs are designated as

Bridgeplate,Maple,Trfd,GE

the Outlaw bridge plate is designated as

Bridgeplate,Maple,Trfd,Circa 1937 (No Tuck)

I hope that helps.

Last edited by OneMansGuitar; 03-10-2017 at 11:55 PM.
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  #23  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:04 PM
jim777 jim777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post

Seems to me that someone ...<snipped>... is just playing around with possibilities.
You say that like it's a negative thing! I only get out of bed in the morning because of possibilities. Ok, come to think of it I tend to stay in bed due to possibilities on some weekends, but that's another story for another forum lol
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  #24  
Old 03-10-2017, 06:06 PM
baimo baimo is offline
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Some of the silly restrictions can hold a company back. Simply because x brand traditionally does something, does not help them move forward. I bought my outlaw because I like the sound of many of the Authentics but can not play most of the necks on authentics. I do understand they are trying to reproduce a 1931 guitar for example but come on. REALLY! If you want a 1931 guitar, buy a 1931 guitar. Some replica made in 2017 is not the same thing.

They should use anything they have found to make a guitar sound better available on many more of their guitar models.
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  #25  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneMansGuitar View Post
You mean other than my direct quote from Jeff Allen saying it does?

He designed it, and his hands took part in making it. And he says the Outlaw model has Authentic Series top bracing and bridge plate, except they are not tucked.

I was provided access to the actual build sheets used to make the instrument, and to make the Bluegrass-16. These are different from the spec sheets they show on line or send to customers.

I was asked not to make the specific contents public. But I can say some things.

They have the same X brace pattern, (5/16, DOMLE #3A) but the Bluegrass is designated as specifically as "GE" for Golden Era.

And after each listing like Tone Bar, Cross Brace, etc. it says GE.

The Outlaw is designated "Hdn Shp" for Hand Shape, for the Top Brace, Cross Brace, Side Brace, and the specific dimensions of the tone bars are different.

In the Tone Bar specs it says "S" for scalloped followed by three numbers, .# x .# x .# Each of these numbers are different than the numbers on the Bluegrass model.

At the end of the specific specs for Tone Bar, Bridge Plate, and Side Brace, it says (NO TUCK)

And where a portion of the Bluegrass bridge plate specs are designated as

Bridgeplate,Maple,Trfd,GE

the Outlaw bridge plate is designated as

Bridgeplate,Maple,Trfd,Circa 1937 (No Tuck)

I hope that helps.
Certainly.
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  #26  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:47 PM
OneMansGuitar OneMansGuitar is offline
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Thanks for quoting my post in its entirety, Todd. It allowed me to see where the typos were.

It actually said "Hnd Shp" and not Hdn Shp, for example. So I edited my actual post as a result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baimo View Post
Some of the silly restrictions can hold a company back. Simply because x brand traditionally does something, does not help them move forward. I bought my outlaw because I like the sound of many of the Authentics but can not play most of the necks on authentics. I do understand they are trying to reproduce a 1931 guitar for example but come on. REALLY! If you want a 1931 guitar, buy a 1931 guitar. Some replica made in 2017 is not the same thing.

They should use anything they have found to make a guitar sound better available on many more of their guitar models.
Have you tried to buy a 1931 OM-28? Not everyone has $25 to 50 THOUSAND dollars with which to buy a guitar.

But I understand your plight as I too have a hard time with those kind of necks more and more. But most of all, I wish they had stuck with their original Authentic Series idea of basing the guitar on multiple examples and not just trying to replicate one exact instrument.

Believe me! When I played the 1930 OM-45 Deluxe as they were preparing to make the Authentic version, I told EVERYONE with ears they should copy that neck exactly and put it on every OM they make. It is the best guitar neck I have ever had in my hands. I begged them to put it on the OM-28 Authentic.

But Fred Greene stuck with his original plan to copy one specific instrument as closely as possible.

I was also in the room when they stuck a gizmo onto the neck of the OM-45 Deluxe, which adheres to a neck and the displacement of the material hugging the neck reproduces a negative relief of the exact profile, for about three frets worth at a time.

And I was among those amazed to see how lopsided the neck was, with much more mass on the bass side and a quick slope to the treble side, and the V was not in the center of the neck but was offset from the volute and heel. Only after seeing that and then handling the neck again was it made obvious why it was so comfortable.

And then they put the gizmo on Mike Seeger's 1931 OM-28. That was so lopsided with such a bass side bulge it looked like the Elephant Man. And other prewar Martins had similar lopsided carving.

But in the end, they only tried to replicate this on the OM-45A 1930, while the 28 gets a symmetrical neck, as do all the Authentics, with the V directly in the center, like a modern guitar, and only how shallow or thick the barrel is determines the approximation of the original neck.

A pity. But I do understand why they felt it was not worth the effort and risk.

I really hope this newly invented bracing on the Outlaw ends up on other special editions. I suspect that is why they did the no tucking, to make it easier to justify using this bracing again without breaking the rule of Thou Shalt Not Use Authentic Bracing on a Non-Authentic Guitar.

Last edited by OneMansGuitar; 03-10-2017 at 11:59 PM.
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  #27  
Old 03-11-2017, 01:16 AM
fongie fongie is offline
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Todd can you explain what it means that the bracing and the bridge plate is not tucked. Please.

By the way thanks again for the demo.
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  #28  
Old 03-11-2017, 03:26 AM
Mr Fingers Mr Fingers is offline
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Great comments, nice review -- but what a silly name, and an even sillier rationalization for it. Breaking our own (arbitrary, categorical) rules... guess we better arrest ourselves, judge ourselves, and then punish ourselves for being so bad.
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  #29  
Old 03-11-2017, 03:53 AM
Authentic Authentic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fingers View Post
Great comments, nice review -- but what a silly name, and an even sillier rationalization for it. Breaking our own (arbitrary, categorical) rules... guess we better arrest ourselves, judge ourselves, and then punish ourselves for being so bad.
And then in a few years' time, Authentic bracing will be available via the custom shop, rendering the Outlaw model just one of the dozens of random limited edition models that Martin puts out every year.
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2017, 05:17 AM
Greg Rappleye Greg Rappleye is offline
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Well, whatever it is, I (really) like it!

Now about that price...

And let our friend Silly Mustache vent a little bit here and there. He has another battle on his hands.



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