Waterloo and the K&K Mini Pickup

[Toby Walker]

Recently I had purchased a Waterloo Jumbo King which for my styles of playing is a perfect fit. As I plan on using this instrument in my performances, my first move was to have it outfitted with a pickup, specifically a K&K mini. Those pickups have worked well for me in the past, as my luthier has probably installed a dozen or more of them in my road guitars.

So imagine my surprise when upon plugging in the guitar, the pick-up's overall volume output was drastically low and the high's tonal quality was absolutely ear piercing! Was it a defect in the pickup, or had my luthier somehow installed the pickup incorrectly? Given the success I've had in the past, both of those possibilities seemed highly improbable.

Upon closer inspection, my luthier determined that because of the uneven surface of the instrument's bridge plate, the contacts of the pick up were making inconsistent contact with the wood. Only after removing the contacts and sanding the bridge plate smooth was the pickup able to work correctly.

I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem. I'm hoping that this manufacturing error is nothing but a one off, and not the result of a shortcut in the overall manufacturing process. Keep in mind that again, this has NEVER happened on any other guitar that I own, and that INCLUDES an inexpensive Harmony Sovereign 1260!

[crikey]

What DI are you using? With no DI, I had varying outputs when going in direct with my K&K, depending on what PA I was going through - until I started using balanced preamp/DIs; some provided by the venues, but if they don't have any I bought a K&K Pure XLR balanced pre/DI - which works great. All problems with output went away when realizing the K&K alone was not enough for the general PA world. Some light tweaking of the pre and volume control @ soundhole set to just a little above half-way. Not saying you're not using a DI, just asking/wondering which one.

The other question I have is, didn't your luthier/tech test it out before telling you it was ready?

This probably needs to go into the electrified section though...

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by crikey

What DI are you using? With no DI, I had varying outputs when going in direct with my K&K, depending on what PA I was going through - until I started using balanced preamp/DIs; some provided by the venues, but if they don't have any I bought a K&K Pure XLR balanced pre/DI - which works great. All problems with output went away when realizing the K&K alone was not enough for the general PA world. Some light tweaking of the pre and volume control @ soundhole set to just a little above half-way. Not saying you're not using a DI, just asking/wondering which one.

The other question I have is, didn't your luthier/tech test it out before telling you it was ready?

This probably needs to go into the electrified section though...

No, I would think it needs to stay here, as it's more about the bridgeplate than it is about the pickup.

The D.I. has nothing to do with it, but I use a Schertler acoustic amp with a single output going into the house P.A. system.

You're right when saying that I should've checked it out completely before leaving the shop. I simply plugged it in to his shop amp, hit the low E string and lit out of there. Had I taken a careful look at his volume setting and played the guitar more, we both would've realized the problem. Live and learn.

[murrmac123]

I have installed several K & K's and I always inspect the bridgeplate before installation.

I have never installed on a Waterloo, but I am aware that the build quality is rough, so your luthier should also have been aware of this, and checked the bridgeplate before installation.

[Buc-a-Roo]

Well the Waterloo website makes a point of mentioning "unsanded braces" so I wouldn't be surprised if the bridge plate got similar treatment. This line of guitars is Bill's tribute to the old slapped together cheap instruments of the early and mid 20th century, built quickly with inferior materials to serve a very low end market. Of course the Waterloos are solid guitars, built by the crafty hands of the Collings workforce, but they are by intention "rough".

[Looburst]

To my knowledge, the only Waterloo that has the higher end finishing quality Collings is known for is the Deluxe model. Sanding on all braces and sound hole rosette. A different animal from all the other Waterloo models. Not sure if the bridge plate is finished this way however.

[wreckmarkT]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem.

Very interesting!

I had a Pure Mini installed in my Waterloo WL-14 a few months ago by my tried and trusted luthier. I noticed upon first strum that the high E & B strings were not as loud and strong as the other 4 strings. The low E, A, D & G sounded spectacular....
After 3 removal & replacement of the element under the E & B strings....and round & round with my luthier, he spoke with the owner of K&K and decided to add an additional transducer under the high E. The result was successful.

However after reading your issue, I wonder if it was the bridge plate to begin with.

I know the Waterloo's are not fitted & sanded to perfection like the "real" Collings line.....intentionally, to emulate the depression era instruments that they are inspired by.
Just makes me wonder....

Glad you got yours resolved. I will run this by my luthier as well.

btw.....love my Waterloo!! Plugged and unplugged!~

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I have installed several K & K's and I always inspect the bridgeplate before installation.

I have never installed on a Waterloo, but I am aware that the build quality is rough, so your luthier should also have been aware of this, and checked the bridgeplate before installation.

Not necessarily. As those Waterloo guitars are relatively new on the market, my luthier wasn't aware of how 'cheaply' they were built. Neither was I, until just recently.

[wreckmarkT]

I think it's important to note the whole idea behind this line.....

...there is a certain "rawness" that is intentional. I wouldn't call them "cheaply" built.

http://www.waterlooguitars.com/about/

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by wreckmark

I think it's important to note the whole idea behind this line.....

...there is a certain "rawness" that is intentional. I wouldn't call them "cheaply" built.

http://www.waterlooguitars.com/about/

Yes, perhaps 'rawness' is the word I was looking for. Then again, Collings has intentionally cut corners in regards to details such as the rosette inlay and the wiping away of excess glue. I'd call that 'rawness' another way of saying that in cutting corners, they're sure saving a bit of money in the process.

[SpruceTop]

Some pickup makers, including Trance Audio, mention to lightly sand the bridgeplate area where the transducers will be located to remove any high spots in the wood, or stray glue from bracing (I had to do this on a Larrivee D-40R). I always lightly sand the bridgeplate, followed by vacuuming it, and then wiping the bridgeplate with acetone or isopropyl alcohol and letting it dry before transducer installation.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

Recently I had purchased a Waterloo Jumbo King which for my styles of playing is a perfect fit. As I plan on using this instrument in my performances, my first move was to have it outfitted with a pickup, specifically a K&K mini. Those pickups have worked well for me in the past, as my luthier has probably installed a dozen or more of them in my road guitars.

So imagine my surprise when upon plugging in the guitar, the pick-up's overall volume output was drastically low and the high's tonal quality was absolutely ear piercing! Was it a defect in the pickup, or had my luthier somehow installed the pickup incorrectly? Given the success I've had in the past, both of those possibilities seemed highly improbable.

Upon closer inspection, my luthier determined that because of the uneven surface of the instrument's bridge plate, the contacts of the pick up were making inconsistent contact with the wood. Only after removing the contacts and sanding the bridge plate smooth was the pickup able to work correctly.

I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem. I'm hoping that this manufacturing error is nothing but a one off, and not the result of a shortcut in the overall manufacturing process. Keep in mind that again, this has NEVER happened on any other guitar that I own, and that INCLUDES an inexpensive Harmony Sovereign 1260!

I read a few posts (rumors?) that Collings specifically (authentically) recreated the budget guitars of the 30s with the Waterloo. So, I wonder if, in fact, this is a "feature" of the guitars and intended to help replicate their "magic?" Glad it worked out, regardless. Personally, I like these Waterloo guitars, especially the jumbo.

[lclyman]

Originally Posted by Looburst

To my knowledge, the only Waterloo that has the higher end finishing quality Collings is known for is the Deluxe model. Sanding on all braces and sound hole rosette. A different animal from all the other Waterloo models. Not sure if the bridge plate is finished this way however.

Interesting comment about the Deluxe model Waterloos...I played 2 Waterloo Jumbo Kings recently, 1 Deluxe and one standard...the Deluxe was clearly the superior one and I ended up buying it. Fantastic guitar...and my 2nd Waterloo model...love this series...

I also was thinking about getting it gig ready with a pickup...though I'm a big fan of the Baggs M1's...I've had mixed results with K&K's but maybe I'll give those a shot again...

LC

[Mr. Jelly]

Thanks for the heads up Toby! Hopefully this will be interjected whenever there is a discussion about Waterloo and pick ups.

[JLS]

That's an installation issue. I always sand the bridgeplate, and treat it with some CA kicker. I never use gel superglue; a medium viscosity gives much better coupling with the top.