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  #16  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:23 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FwL View Post
In the example, were you to replace the note in question with the V you would then get a tritone (b5) from G to C#. That would be an ugly bass line. The only tasteful option at the level you're working is to repeat the I.

.
Then I'll assume that's why it's like it is. It would be helpful if they would mention that so us beginners don't try to make sense of what they think they know.
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  #17  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:25 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
First rule of music theory: does it sound good? C-C#-D is standard walk up from the 4 chord, and it SOUNDS good. Don't overanalyze too much.

More common would probably be to approach the C with A-B-C. I think the author is just trying to simplify by sticking to chord tones for now. In the long run , it will be most helpful to think of the walk up notes as basically belonging more to the chord they're approaching than the preceding one anyway. C-C#-D works because it's a great connection between those two chords.
I agree with the overthinking. However, when starting out a framework should be established I would think. I was trying to get what I was seeing to fit in the framework that was established. That may have been my mistake.
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  #18  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:26 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Hmm, the three note walks ups with the leading tones are fine. Consistency is that at each chord change the new chord starts on the root note – consistent and tight. Beats ending up with C-G-C-G-C#-D in any case
Good. Glad it makes reasonable sense to those that already have a solid understanding.
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  #19  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:28 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
If you've played for a very long time, it's difficult to see things as a beginner would. You miss things and assume things , thinking that they're obvious. You don't realize which things need to be explained more until you have someone in front of you asking the question maybe. I always have to rewrite things when confusing points are pointed out by someone other than me.

That's the value of having a teacher live and in person by the way. I think that the above example would be explained very easily and casually if you had the author in front of you. I don't think it's something to fret over . When things get put down on paper there's a tendency to over analyze or assume that it's somehow in some perfect form, or to try to attach "meaning" to each note. I think authors would do well to work things through in workshops or lessons for a little while before publishing or whatever, but for your part, it's helpful to remember that this stuff is not holy scripture.

I would chalk it up to the awkwardness inherent in taking specific musical practices and trying to boil them down to a very basic concept. Things don't necessarily work that way. You compromise one thing or another. The "rules " you're assuming in these beginning lessons aren't rules at all. They're simply artificial limitations to make your understanding easier. It's ironic, because limitations to "simplify" cause OTHER problems apparently.

I really don't think this is something to obsess over. Skip to the next lesson or try playing out the way you think it should be. I think you're going to find that the alternate bass version you're wanting to see won't sound as good.

The first two rules of music theory are:
1. "Does this sound good?" and
2. "Does it sound good?"
I agree with all that. Having the "Break instructor out of glass in the case of an emergency!" would have helped. Instead, I stopped at that lesson and tried to figure it out before moving on.

I'll try it the way I thought it should be and see how it sounds.
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  #20  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:31 AM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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I appreciate all those that have taken the time to discuss this with me, it has been helpful.
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  #21  
Old 07-06-2017, 10:11 AM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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The C C# D is hinting at a passing diminished chord, the #IVdim7, which is very common.

This makes sense, you just have to let go of the "alternating bass' thought there. It's valid bass motion.
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  #22  
Old 07-06-2017, 11:51 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Just to add to all the above...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
I'm working on basic walking bass lines with a leading tone. A walking bass line is I, V, right? Right.
No, that's a common "alternating bass" line.
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Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
Then the leading tone is the 7th of whatever chord you are going to, right? Right.
Yes. A semitone (half-step) below the root.

What this exercise is doing is combining alternating bass with brief "walking" moves. A walking bass line involves the arpeggio, and often passing scale notes in between. It will usually aim to lead to the next chord root via half-step - and the 7th of the next chord is probably the most common, leading up by half-step. (Down from a half-step above is also possible.)

As the others say, the governing rule is "does it sound good". That over-rules any other rule, such as "1-5 bass lines".
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  #23  
Old 07-06-2017, 12:00 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Just to add to all the above...
No, that's a common "alternating bass" line.
Yes. A semitone (half-step) below the root.

What this exercise is doing is combining alternating bass with brief "walking" moves. A walking bass line involves the arpeggio, and often passing scale notes in between. It will usually aim to lead to the next chord root via half-step - and the 7th of the next chord is probably the most common, leading up by half-step. (Down from a half-step above is also possible.)

As the others say, the governing rule is "does it sound good". That over-rules any other rule, such as "1-5 bass lines".
Agreed.

One additional practical consideration is the duration of the leading/passing tone.
A quarter note may be long enough to imply a chord change while a shorter note (8th or 16th) has a "stealthier" presence with its quicker motion.
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  #24  
Old 07-06-2017, 01:10 PM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Just to add to all the above...
No, that's a common "alternating bass" line.
Yes. A semitone (half-step) below the root.

What this exercise is doing is combining alternating bass with brief "walking" moves. A walking bass line involves the arpeggio, and often passing scale notes in between. It will usually aim to lead to the next chord root via half-step - and the 7th of the next chord is probably the most common, leading up by half-step. (Down from a half-step above is also possible.)

As the others say, the governing rule is "does it sound good". That over-rules any other rule, such as "1-5 bass lines".
I think you are right, as others have pointed out, that what I posted was an alternating bass line.

A point of discussion on what you, and others have said. Is the governing rule "does it sound good?" hold up if a lesson is leading somewhere? If the lessons are taking one down a path, and myself as a beginner doesn't know any better, should I say "Well that sounds good, I'll do this ..."? Or should the beginner (me) stay within the bounds of instruction in the "appeal to authority" argument?

Just for chatting purposes.
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  #25  
Old 07-06-2017, 01:12 PM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Agreed.

One additional practical consideration is the duration of the leading/passing tone.
A quarter note may be long enough to imply a chord change while a shorter note (8th or 16th) has a "stealthier" presence with its quicker motion.
Later in the book, and actually fairly soon, these small examples are moved beyond and "things" are added. Crawling, walking, suffering injury then laying there, crawling again, walking .... walking a bit more, then trotting, is the path I appear to be on.
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  #26  
Old 07-06-2017, 06:59 PM
WonderMonkey WonderMonkey is offline
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FYI the next lesson explained what was going on. I wish they would have skipped going "ahead" as I'm sure, as a beginner, it has caused more than myself to stop and stare, unnecessarily.
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  #27  
Old 07-06-2017, 08:25 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Wonder, I think what you didn't get is that there are four bass notes to the measure. On the 2 and 4 beats where there is a chord, the bottom note is one of the bass notes. Where the 4 beat is just a bass note without a chord, it is the leading tone to the next root.

...................................G.............. .......C.........................D
So the bass line is going 1 5 5 5/ 1 5 5 3/ 1 3 5 3/ 1 3 1 #1/ I etc.

As others have said going back to C instead of G on the 3rd beat of the 4th measure is just because it sounds better--it gives a stronger movement up to the D.

You will get confused thinking of leading tones going from the 7th to the root of the next chord, because a leading tone does not need to be a chord tone (if the chord is dominant or minor it won't be), and does not need to be below the root to which it leads. Leading tones are always a semitone below or above the root of the next chord.

A walking bass line, like an alternating bass line, is typically a quarter note on each beat in 4/4 time. But a walking line is not just root and fifth--it arpeggiates the chord to include root, third, fifth, and sometimes other chord tones, and often--but not always--uses leading tones to get to the next root. A walking line gives a feeling of forward harmonic movement, and is commonly associated with a swing rhythm.
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Last edited by Howard Klepper; 07-06-2017 at 09:00 PM.
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2017, 02:18 AM
FwL FwL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
FYI the next lesson explained what was going on. I wish they would have skipped going "ahead" as I'm sure, as a beginner, it has caused more than myself to stop and stare, unnecessarily.

What was their explanation?

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