Expression System Modifications--Does Anyone Know How?

[SpruceTop]

Hi Folks,

Just last week, I finally purchased a Taylor guitar! My choice is a new, serial number May 2008, 714ce with beautiful tobacco-burst top finish without pickguard. The reason I like this guitar is that it has the characteristic Taylor x14ce tone but, due to its Western Red Cedar top, it has a warmth from the start that the sitka spruce-topped x14ce's don't have--Yes! It's cedar and the tone won't develop as much over the years as a sitka-spruce topped x14ce. That's more than okay with me because after owning over 50 high-end axes, the only one I can vouch for noticeably opening up is my new Larrivee D-05E--that happened within only two hours of playing time!

Okay, this guitar, is the seventh Taylor I've purchased over the last 2 years. The first six I returned within one to six days time within my local dealer's trial period. They were all acoustic-electric, and sounded good acoustically, and ranged from a 310ce all the way up to a new 816ce. The main reason I returned them all was because of the Expression System's amplified tone. With this 714ce, I finally said to myself, "I can live with the ES because this guitar's tone is excellent and something I can enjoy for many years to come." Please see my listing of my currently-owned guitars to see my tonal preferences.

Now, let's get to the meat of my subject-line question. From my listening, the Taylor Expression System can sound okay when finger-picked or flat-picked in a lightly- to moderately-aggressive manner. Once a player gets a bit aggressive, an electric-guitar vibe becomes easily evident. You can eq the guitar, either with the onboard tone controls or a mixer's tone controls, but that electric-guitar vibe still remains. The culprit, as many of you are willing to admit is the under-fingerboard magnetic pickup. The body sensors, I believe are of merit but would be un-necessary if Taylor would go to an undersaddle pickup. It would be nice if the underfingerboard magnetic pickup's level could be adjustable within the overall ES mix. This can't be done with the outboard onboard controls.

If I worked for Taylor, I would suggest to Bob Taylor that the ideal Expression System would use an undersaddle piezo pickup in a variable-mix configuration with the underfingerboard magnetic pickup feeding into a Fishman Aura preamp or a Taylor proprietary-version of something similar. I don't work for Taylor and, I guess, for now Bob's going to live or die with the current ES.

To pinpoint my Expression System questions:

Do any of you Taylor aficionados, familiar with the Expression Sytem, know of a method to downplay the underfingerboard magnetic pickup's level in the mix compared to the two body sensors? Is there an ES circuitboard choke-coil screw or other readily-manipulated control for the underfingerboard magnetic pickup that I can turn and tweak to my ears' satisfaction, and, if desired, can be returned to factory-levels?

Thanks & Regards,

SpruceTop

Martin HD-28 Dreadnought
Martin D-15 Custom Spruce & Rosewood Dreadnought
Huss & Dalton DS Slope-Shouldered Dreadnought Rosewood
Taylor 714ce
Larrivee D-05E Dreadnought Mahogany
RainSong DR1000 Dreadnought All-Graphite
Fender Stratocaster

[Tony Burns]

Im not sure if your aware of the extremes that Ceder can change to in a year or two - it changes faster than spruce - not slower . My Ceder toped Classical really made a dramatic change in about a year and a halfs time -its a different guitar -i like it , but its a different animal. Jokingly a friend refers to it as the Dark Side . Not trying to change your opinion of your instrument - but your post gives me the feeling that you think it wont change as fast as a spruce . many players feel that after they reach a certain point they dont get that much better - im not sure about that.

[TekWorm]

Interesting.... I was recently told, that the "ES" from 2008-on had mini dip-switches on the electronics package, allowing individual sensors to be switched off/on.
Is this mis-information??

[pkang]

i believe your talking about the ES system from 2007+ ... they have two switches on the board to turn off one or both of the body sensors...is that what you are referring to in the post above?

[michaelw]

the dip-switches allow either one or both body sensors to be defeated -
other than the bass/treble/volume controls, there is no provision
(as-built) to alter the signal coming from the magnetic neck pickup

i would like to see an ES with the ES-T UST, the body sensors &
a pre-amp with sweepable mid & blend control... that's asking a lot,
but i think it would reduce the electric-magnetic "vibe"...

the 9V ES is quite a bit "warmer" & less magnetic sounding (imho)
than the 2-AA system

[TekWorm]

Originally Posted by pkang

i believe your talking about the ES system from 2007+ ... they have two switches on the board to turn off one or both of the body sensors...is that what you are referring to in the post above?

I reckon so... I probably misunderstood the description I was given.
I thought the fretboard sensor was switchable, as well.
That would be nice.
A way of blending "to taste", as michaelw suggests, would be better yet.

[Herb Hunter]

The low fidelity of piezoelectric transducers is what motivated Taylor to produce an alternative. The reason for developing the Expression System was to avoid piezoelectric pickups because of their unnatural sound quality. Suggesting that Taylor incorporate USTs in their ES design is like telling Tesla Motors that their all-electric roadster would be better if they added a gasoline engine to it.

[reags]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Suggesting that Taylor incorporate USTs in their ES design is like telling Tesla Motors that their all-electric roadster would be better if they added a gasoline engine to it.

That's gold Herb, couldn't have said it better myself if I tried

[Side Man]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

The low fidelity of piezoelectric transducers is what motivated Taylor to produce an alternative. The reason for developing the Expression System was to avoid piezoelectric pickups because of their unnatural sound quality. Suggesting that Taylor incorporate USTs in their ES design is like telling Tesla Motors that their all-electric roadster would be better if they added a gasoline engine to it.

Taylor has already incorporated UST's in their ES design; as I recall, for about a month it was called the "ES Element" (until they figured out that Baggs aready called one of their UST's by that name); thus the Taylor ES-T was borne.

It's kinda ironic that after years of implying that UST's are BAD, Taylor (IMHO) has eaten their own words and now makes one themselves.

Wonder if it runs on regular or Ethyl???

[jalbert]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

The low fidelity of piezoelectric transducers is what motivated Taylor to produce an alternative.

Some in the industry think that the transducers aren't the problem--the preamp is. If you've ever heard a high-headroom UST like the D-TAR or Mi Si, you can tell a noticeable improvement over the brand Taylor used prior to 2003. FWIW, I switched from an ES guitar because I just couldn't get over its magnetic character.

[MikeTX]

Hi Spruce,

I custom ordered a late-2006 Taylor, it came with the old ES, I did the upgrade to the 2007 ES, still didn't work for me, same sonic reason as you state. I was shocked, as when you READ about the ES, it seems it just must be fabulous. My luthier pulled it and replaced it with a B-Band UST and preamp, because it would be able to use the 3 Taylor ES knobs and the battery pack.

For aestetic reasons, I decided to order yet another custom, different color and trimmings - this time with NO electronics, and my same luthier installed the same B-Band. Both guitars amplified sound excellent to my taste, but the later one was a cleaner and better install - he also said the 2008 guitar seemed to be a tighter build overall.

ES fans think me crazy, but conversely - I don't see how they can use the ES.

Best luck, Mike

[Jarvis]

All the 3 pickups are run in parrallel...so if you remove the neck pickup ..it won't function...

but my friend just used a computer jumper to connect on the ES circuit board for the neck pickup ..then he removed the neck pickup...this allowed a better natural tone...but the downside is low out put...however when he increased the gain ..it had too much hiss..

his ES is the 2005 model

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Jarvis

All the 3 pickups are run in parrallel...so if you remove the neck pickup ..it won't function...

but my friend just used a computer jumper to connect on the ES circuit board for the neck pickup ..then he removed the neck pickup...this allowed a better natural tone...but the downside is low out put...however when he increased the gain ..it had too much hiss..

his ES is the 2005 model

A series circuit would be interrupted by the removal of one of the elements. A parallel circuit should remain closed even if one of the elements is removed. Christmas tree lights illustrate this well.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Side Man

Taylor has already incorporated UST's in their ES design; as I recall, for about a month it was called the "ES Element" (until they figured out that Baggs aready called one of their UST's by that name); thus the Taylor ES-T was borne.

It's kinda ironic that after years of implying that UST's are BAD, Taylor (IMHO) has eaten their own words and now makes one themselves.

Wonder if it runs on regular or Ethyl???

Taylor never implied that USTs were bad, the clearly said their characteristics had drawbacks. Taylor has not incorporated USTs in their ES design. They replaced the single induction pickup of their entry level system with a UST.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by MikeTX

Hi Spruce,

I custom ordered a late-2006 Taylor, it came with the old ES, I did the upgrade to the 2007 ES, still didn't work for me, same sonic reason as you state. I was shocked, as when you READ about the ES, it seems it just must be fabulous. My luthier pulled it and replaced it with a B-Band UST and preamp, because it would be able to use the 3 Taylor ES knobs and the battery pack.

For aestetic reasons, I decided to order yet another custom, different color and trimmings - this time with NO electronics, and my same luthier installed the same B-Band. Both guitars amplified sound excellent to my taste, but the later one was a cleaner and better install - he also said the 2008 guitar seemed to be a tighter build overall.

ES fans think me crazy, but conversely - I don't see how they can use the ES.

Best luck, Mike

Hi Mike TX,

You know what I'm getting at! Thanks!

I've never found, as some do, UST piezo pickups as sounding low-fidelity and to me they offer up a more acoustic-like amplified tone than Taylor's ES. To be sure, there is that characteristic metallic transient (some call it quack) when played aggressively. I've found one of the secrets to getting a good natural tone out of a UST piezo is to pass the signal from the guitar's output jack through a Fishman Aura Acoustic Imaging Blender or one of their new Fishman Aura Pedals and then on into an acoustic amp or PA system. The Aura removes most of the undesirable characteristics of a piezo and imparts a full, microphone-like warmth to the amplified tone. Another advantage of a Fishman Aura system is that many images are derived from using a soundhole magnetic pickup and I think that turning-off the Taylor's ES body sensors and using only the underfingerboard magnetic pickup feeding the Aura would yield a satisfactory amplified acoustic tone.

I've thought about doing what you did and buying a Taylor straight-acoustic guitar and adding a UST to it but I like the looks of Taylor's "ce" series of guitars. I think my 714ce is going to sound great when played into a microphone, and if used in conjunction with the ES, would probably yield a really full sound. Of course, any time a microphone is used in a live venue, there is a good chance of feedback. I'll have to experiment with things.

Thanks for your response! It was very helpful!

SpruceTop


Martin HD-28 Dreadnought
Martin D-15 Custom Spruce & Rosewood Dreadnought
Huss & Dalton DS Slope-Shouldered Dreadnought Rosewood
Taylor 714ce
Larrivee D-05E Dreadnought Mahogany
RainSong DR1000 Dreadnought All-Graphite
Fender Stratocaster