Fishman TriplePlay

[el_kabong]

Louie:

Hey, good tip on the ferrite...I need to check that out. I need to do some rewiring/shielding on that Gibson too, as it happens.

Well, the S-Gear (and maybe the even the TriplePlay) are just evidence about the direction that these technologies seem to be heading. I've seen some interesting interviews with the owners of some of these very expensive boutique amps where they talk about how much time and effort they have to put into them to get the "right tone" out of them. So, assuming the budget is available, its great to have them, but its getting so that's not really a deal killer either. Actually, that reminds me of a blurb I read at the Guitar Moderne blogsite..., which you might enjoy, btw.

I understand about having substantial investment in a particular path...the only thing that crosses my mind (every other day or so) is what will I need to sell to finance this new project? Let's see, I've got four nice guitar amps....how many get to stay?

cheers, scott

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by el_kabong

Louie:

Hey, good tip on the ferrite...I need to check that out. I need to do some rewiring/shielding on that Gibson too, as it happens.

Well, the S-Gear (and maybe the even the TriplePlay) are just evidence about the direction that these technologies seem to be heading. I've seen some interesting interviews with the owners of some of these very expensive boutique amps where they talk about how much time and effort they have to put into them to get the "right tone" out of them. So, assuming the budget is available, its great to have them, but its getting so that's not really a deal killer either. Actually, that reminds me of a blurb I read at the Guitar Moderne blogsite..., which you might enjoy, btw.

I understand about having substantial investment in a particular path...the only thing that crosses my mind (every other day or so) is what will I need to sell to finance this new project? Let's see, I've got four nice guitar amps....how many get to stay?

cheers, scott

Scott,

I'm down to one amp now, a 60s Ampeg VT-40 I believe it is. Great reverb, though no gain. When I got the VG-8 I actually used studio moniitors during gigs so I didn't "color" the VG-8 tones with a guitar amp. Works great with the GR-55 as well.

I think I can deal with 4ms! I wonder what that would jump to if I'm simultaneously playing samples through guitar-to-MIDI using TriplePlay. I also thought about a rack-mount computer; my laptop is plenty powerful though i don't necessarily want to take it to gigs and would rather have a dedicated one for such. Does the S-Gear support multiple processors and 64-bit?

I found this - Fender TriplePlay ready Strat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqOYFXtLsU

[Doubleneck]

I can see how you record with it can you use it for live play?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

I can see how you record with it can you use it for live play?

There are guys that do right now... takes a tiny adjustment with the latency, have to feel slightly "ahead" to be on time...

[el_kabong]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

I can see how you record with it can you use it for live play?

Louie & Doubleneck:

I guess that might be a big part of the question that Louie and I have been discussing. On the basis of either general flexibility or as a measure of performance, I might consider live use as the "acid test" of just how good these systems might really be. For me, that would include both "how good does it sound" and "how easy and reliable is it to use".

Regarding the TriplePlay, I don't know yet whether it's tracking or latency performance is any better than any of the Roland products. As Louie and I have discussed, the transient detection methods used in the Axon units probably provide the best tracking, especially when combined with a piezo-based hexaphonic pickups. The magnetic versions (TriplePlay included) seem to work pretty well on electric guitars, maybe less-well on acoustics, unless fitted out with magnetic strings.

The Axon's tracking performance, in some large part, is a software solution. Whether or not Fishman's software (or Roland's newer versions) have similar enhancements, I don't know ---- but would really love to know. Oh, Louie - thought that youtube sample you provided sounded pretty good, but I did still notice some of the same sort of (maybe typical) minor tracking issues that I seem to get with my system.

Now, I'd really love to test an Axon unit to get a better idea of just how much better they track...but, we probably can't ignore just how much of the performance burden lies on our technique...sloppy playing just isn't going to work. I did go back, btw, and review more material and examples of the GR-55 and, frankly, it seems as useful as (or better than) most of the systems available, especially for live performance.

Frankly, I really don't have any serious complaint about my GR-20, except that I'd like to have more polyphonic programming control over each string. Of course, I'd be interested in anything that would improve tracking performance and/or reduce latency. But these Roland units are fairly robust, reliable, and predictable.

I've long been a Roland fan, but am less impressed (lately) with their COSM technology, which has indirectly been discussed in this thread, specifically in regard to other providers modeling...the good, the bad, and the ugly. Aside from the amp modeling issue, I'm starting to think that cabinet simulation and impulse response modeling may be the biggest deal in that equation.

I'm not totally convinced (yet) that a mostly-software approach stands up to the live performance standard, but it sure seems that it's getting there, bit by bit.

Oh, Louie, Here's a piece done with my acoustic RMC/GR-20 setup.

cheers, scott

[Doubleneck]

My question is simplier. How do you connect it to the board for live play?

[el_kabong]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

My question is simplier. How do you connect it to the board for live play?

Ha, yes, I suppose that is a simpler question. Anything that generates audio inside your computer can be routed externally through any kind of internal or external sound card (or interface). From there it can go anywhere you want it...to the PA, re-amped to an amplifier, etc.

The issue of latency, as Louie noted, is the time it takes for the round-trip of signals from your instrument to go to, through, and back again. We're talking milliseconds, but these can add up to the point of becoming a nearly useless aggravation.

Hope that helps.

[Doubleneck]

I have a Mac Notebook computer, the triple play USBs into its programs what specifically do I buy to get that sound to the board at church?

[el_kabong]

Hey Doubleneck -

As shown below, it can be as easy as just running a stereo cable from your computer's audio output...even headphone jack....to the mixer. Of course, you'd likely need a 1/8" adapter for whatever cable you'd use. Most folks, however, would benefit from using some kind of external audio interface as it will generally provide better quality output and give you additional input options for a mic and/or guitar. These typically plug into your computer's USB, Firewire, or now with Mac, Thunderbolt port, depending on the computer model.

I don't know which Mac Book you own, but there are lots of good used interfaces available on eBay that use firewire, though USB models are necessarily becoming more typical. I happen to use the Presonus Inspire, which has been pretty good and can be had used for less than $50. I don't know how far the wireless system will broadcast, but would imagine that you could place the laptop and interface (assuming you use one) near enough to run a cable to the stage snake or mixer, so long as you're within that distance. I'd guess that you'd want it close enough to you to be able to tweak your patches as might be required.

Hope that helps.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by el_kabong

Louie & Doubleneck:

I guess that might be a big part of the question that Louie and I have been discussing. On the basis of either general flexibility or as a measure of performance, I might consider live use as the "acid test" of just how good these systems might really be. For me, that would include both "how good does it sound" and "how easy and reliable is it to use".

Regarding the TriplePlay, I don't know yet whether it's tracking or latency performance is any better than any of the Roland products. As Louie and I have discussed, the transient detection methods used in the Axon units probably provide the best tracking, especially when combined with a piezo-based hexaphonic pickups. The magnetic versions (TriplePlay included) seem to work pretty well on electric guitars, maybe less-well on acoustics, unless fitted out with magnetic strings.

The Axon's tracking performance, in some large part, is a software solution. Whether or not Fishman's software (or Roland's newer versions) have similar enhancements, I don't know ---- but would really love to know. Oh, Louie - thought that youtube sample you provided sounded pretty good, but I did still notice some of the same sort of (maybe typical) minor tracking issues that I seem to get with my system.

Now, I'd really love to test an Axon unit to get a better idea of just how much better they track...but, we probably can't ignore just how much of the performance burden lies on our technique...sloppy playing just isn't going to work. I did go back, btw, and review more material and examples of the GR-55 and, frankly, it seems as useful as (or better than) most of the systems available, especially for live performance.

Frankly, I really don't have any serious complaint about my GR-20, except that I'd like to have more polyphonic programming control over each string. Of course, I'd be interested in anything that would improve tracking performance and/or reduce latency. But these Roland units are fairly robust, reliable, and predictable.

I've long been a Roland fan, but am less impressed (lately) with their COSM technology, which has indirectly been discussed in this thread, specifically in regard to other providers modeling...the good, the bad, and the ugly. Aside from the amp modeling issue, I'm starting to think that cabinet simulation and impulse response modeling may be the biggest deal in that equation.

I'm not totally convinced (yet) that a mostly-software approach stands up to the live performance standard, but it sure seems that it's getting there, bit by bit.

Oh, Louie, Here's a piece done with my acoustic RMC/GR-20 setup.

cheers, scott

It's going to be tough to test drive an AXON as of now they're defunct, and you risk buying something used with absolutely no support. I read rumors about guys updating their firmware and bricking their units, so tread carefully. I will vouch for it's amazing tracking ability. The GR-55, unlike earlier Roland stuff, also uses the transient for pitch detection which makes it extremely fast.

My fear with a software approach is the inevitable glitch that will occur at a crucial moment. We don't have redundancy and sound engineers in our budget to seamlessly switch us over in the event of a boo-boo; all hardware at least gives a safety valve.

On your point about connectivity, it might be better to get an external sound card/audio i/o controller. Anything that offloads at least some processing should reduce latency.

On your point about COSM, I still feel the best modeled sounds come from the VG-8, and inexplicably I think there's features they omitted im later versions like auto-tune. The 12 string sounds on the GR-55 are done well, and the Rick sounds are extremely good; in fact the acoustic sounds are probably their best. Having an all in one also beats out tapdancing between GR-33 and VG-99. I tried using the VG-99 MIDI out to trigger patches on the GR-33 but I spent more time programming patches! I even thought of rack-mounting both and controlling patches via my Ground Control MIDI pedal; I had a friend set me up a long time ago with a GCX audio switcher which allowed me to rack-mount my pedals along with my Lexicon and ADA MP-1, it was like having a Bradshaw built rig! I'm too lazy nowdays to lug all this stuff around.

Cool clip BTW, pretty impressed with the tone you get from the RMCs. The Ghost Floyd works really well, though the wires are needlessly too thin, and the locknut flat out sucks. I scoured eBay for older Floyd Rose made in Germany nuts which have hardened clamps. The plating on the Fhost locknut seems really soft.

[el_kabong]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

It's going to be tough to test drive an AXON as of now they're defunct, and you risk buying something used with absolutely no support. I read rumors about guys updating their firmware and bricking their units, so tread carefully. I will vouch for it's amazing tracking ability. The GR-55, unlike earlier Roland stuff, also uses the transient for pitch detection which makes it extremely fast.

Wow - I didn't know that....I'll be interested to look into that, very interesting.

My fear with a software approach is the inevitable glitch that will occur at a crucial moment. We don't have redundancy and sound engineers in our budget to seamlessly switch us over in the event of a boo-boo; all hardware at least gives a safety valve.

Yeah, I think so too, which is why I've spent a few hours over the past few days (inspired by this conversation, btw) looking into the idea of hardware VST hosts, even DIY variants, among other "out of the box" approaches. At present, I don't see any "perfect" or, otherwise, affordable solutions...the (also possibly defunct) SM Pro V-Machine being the only really affordable unit out there, but how well it works may be open to debate.

Still, I might argue that all of these "gizmos" we're talking about are, in fact, computers of one sort or another. The reliability issue - with either PC's and, perhaps to a lesser extent, Macs is that they're designed and expected to do quite a few other things that, often as not, get in the way of stable and reliable operation. I'm led to understand, by a very knowledgeable ex-Nashville studio pro that those custom designed studio computers tend to work very well...but that comes at a price.

I can't help but wish that one of the various manufacturers out there will, perhaps, improve the functionality of such units as the GR-55, the VG variants, the Eleven Rack, the Axe FX, or the DSP1101, etc. to add...at the very least, a generic VST hosting capability...shoot, that would be dead simple, you'd think.

On your point about connectivity, it might be better to get an external sound card/audio i/o controller. Anything that offloads at least some processing should reduce latency.

Yes, to Doubleneck, if you're still reading, that's always better.

On your point about COSM, I still feel the best modeled sounds come from the VG-8, and inexplicably I think there's features they omitted im later versions like auto-tune. The 12 string sounds on the GR-55 are done well, and the Rick sounds are extremely good; in fact the acoustic sounds are probably their best.

Again, interesting. I failed to note earlier that my somewhat limited personal experience with Roland's COSM goes waaaaaay back to a GT-3 (which I still have, actually) and I know it's gotten better. I think, though, that my misgivings are more-or-less universal, extending perhaps even to units that are, at the moment, well outside my price range...the Axe FX included, which is one of the reasons I found Scuffham's S-Gear so encouraging. The ability to add the best available plugin would be a great advantage (hint, hint to Roland, Digidesign, TC Electronics, Line 6, et al).

Having an all in one also beats out tapdancing between GR-33 and VG-99. I tried using the VG-99 MIDI out to trigger patches on the GR-33 but I spent more time programming patches! I even thought of rack-mounting both and controlling patches via my Ground Control MIDI pedal; I had a friend set me up a long time ago with a GCX audio switcher which allowed me to rack-mount my pedals along with my Lexicon and ADA MP-1, it was like having a Bradshaw built rig! I'm too lazy nowdays to lug all this stuff around.

That whole paragraph may me laugh. How well I know the feeling. Sometimes it seems like way too much work...especially if you're trying to put together a reliable live rig. That's part of why the comparative ease of just working with my DAW and any plugin I care to use here in my home studio is just so bloody easy and fun.

Right now my live rig is mostly geared to acoustic stuff, with looping and occasional MIDI elements, run through a small mixer and a rack with a Rane AP13 and a Lexicon FX and DBX compressor. As often as not, I leave the looper and MIDI stuff at home, because it's just too much going on. I'd love to add the electric too, but that would only make things worse. You can see why a laptop and a decent interface might be so appealing, eh?

Cool clip BTW, pretty impressed with the tone you get from the RMCs. The Ghost Floyd works really well, though the wires are needlessly too thin, and the locknut flat out sucks. I scoured eBay for older Floyd Rose made in Germany nuts which have hardened clamps. The plating on the Fhost locknut seems really soft.

Hey, thanks, just hacking away at it, though not as seriously as I'd like at the moment. I too have looked at the GraphTech stuff....I'm holding on to a PRS SE semi-hollow just-in-case I want to convert something. I had a Custom 22 SE that might have been a better candidate, but it's not too much of an investment risk and a mod that I'd be less inclined to do on my Gibson. Personally, I'm leaning at the moment for just getting a GK-3 to strap on the Gibson and call it a day. I might still trade out of the GR-20 for something with better polyphony capabilities and, thanks, you've given me some good food for thought down that path.

Cheers, Scott