Laminated guitars

[N+1]

Originally Posted by rwmct

I ask because my impression is that the laminated guitars made by companies like Taylor really are solid wood guitars, it is just that the wood is poplar. The laminates are very thin. I have a hard time believing they have a great affect on the tone. The tone is poplar.

Truly, it's not a 'belief', or an 'argument' issue. I repeat what I said above:

Go to a suitable guitar shop, i.e. a shop where you can play and hear:
1. A 214ce K DLX (solid spruce top, layered back and sides, Koa layers inside and out)
2. A 214ce QM DLX (solid spruce top, layered back and sides, Quilted Maple layers inside and out)

The differences between them will be so clearly evident that the real question becomes not "Do the tonewood layers make a difference?" but the far more interesting "Why do the tonewood layers make such a huge difference?"

[printer2]

Originally Posted by rwmct

Are the Poplar laminated back and sides made and assembled the same way solid mahogany, maple or rosewood back and sides are made and assembled (other than the veneers being added for aesthetics)?

I ask because my impression is that the laminated guitars made by companies like Taylor really are solid wood guitars, it is just that the wood is poplar. The laminates are very thin. I have a hard time believing they have a great affect on the tone. The tone is poplar.

If what you get with a high quality laminate is essentially solid poplar back and sides, then referring to it as "plywood" is very misleading, IMO. Most high quality plywood with veneers that I am familiar with have nothing like a solid core of hard wood.

It is one thing to say that you want solid mahogany or solid rosewood, because you want your guitar made from those tonewoods. You don't get that with a laminate guitar.

Anyone ever seen a guitar where they just used the poplar and did not put the veneers on for looks?

I have some poplar waiting to be made into a guitar, one day I will get to it.


Found this, poplar top.



And just found out your painted guitar might have a poplar back and sides.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...405886471.html

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...397018036.html

[cmac]

Originally Posted by Theleman

I think the Samick looks like laminate spruce top. From the sound hole, when peeked into inside of the edge, I can see the top spruce layer which is the top of the body, and underneath the top, I can see another layer of unknown wood of some sort glued on. So the top is actually quite thick.

The S101 has only one layer of the spruce top, nothing underneath it.

I don't know the guitar in question but your description sounds more like soundhole reinforcement. Feel around inside to see how far the inner layer extends, my guess is you'll find the inner layer is only about 1" across. Doesn't mean the top isn't laminated though.

[Theleman]

In my guitar collection, I have one all solid wood body guitar, and it is the loudest and has deepest bass sound. It also sounds open.

Laminated guitars sound good too, but they are not as loud as the solid bodied one. Also sound range sounds more controlled, tight and solid.

There is definitely difference. Not necessarily one is better than the other, but could be matter of individual's preference?

[merlin666]

Originally Posted by N+1

But now, go to a suitable guitar shop, i.e. a shop where you can play and hear:
1. A 214ce K DLX (solid spruce top, layered back and sides, Koa layers inside and out)
2. A 214ce QM DLX (solid spruce top, layered back and sides, Quilted Maple layers inside and out)

The differences will be so audibly self-evident - not at all subtle, but blindingly obvious - that the carefully reasoned argument will be abandoned immediately.

I will have to keep this in mind and keep my eye open for these two models in one store. To my untrained ears all Taylors sound pretty much the same and it's all looks but I will keep trying.

So the interesting question that has been raised a few times is the use of poplar as a common used "filler" wood and if/why it has not been used as a tonewood in itself. My experience with poplar is it's use as the core in my Adamas 1687 where it is sandwiched between layers of woven carbon fibres. This is definitely my guitar that has most bass and sustain (even more than my Guild Orpheum Jumbo). Now this top is also super thin compared to solid wooden tops and has other features such as bracing and soundhole placement that have an effect. Still the question remains why after much experimentation with many materials poplar was selected for this guitar, and apparently for many other laminated guitars.

[Photojeep]

I'm not about to contribute to this discussion because I really don't know about the sonic principles of various woods, be they solid or laminates/plys/layers.

But I do have some questions and some obserations:

1. Taking out those guitars with a layered/laminated tops, how much do the sides and backs of guitars contribute to the actual sound of an acoustic guitar?

From my very limited knowledge and research, I've learned it's the top of the guitar that makes the sound, vibrating much like a speaker cone. The string is plucked, the resulting energy is transferred to the top via the saddle and bridge, the top vibrates producing a sound wave and the note is heard. it seems obvious also the top is producing a sound wave both forwards out and away from the instrument and inwards into the body cavity.

2. So is the existence of this inward facing sound wave the reason we have a sound hole in acoustics? So it can escape the body and be heard?

It seems to (remember, I really don't know very much...) it shouldn't really matter if the sides and backs are solid or laminated if the interior wood surface the sound waves encounter is the appropriate wood species.

That is, does a thin solid piece of rosewood reflect sound differently than a thin veneer of rosewood over poplar?

3. Could this difference we hear between all solid wood instruments and their solid top with laminated b/s be more about the quality of the top wood and it's bracing more than the b/s lamination or lack thereof? Could it be that most all solid wood guitars simply have "better" tops than their laminated cousins? Perhaps the laminated b/s instruments generally don't get the "best" top woods since they will be at a lower price point anyway?

There is no doubt my Gibson all solid wood J15 has richer bass and overall tones than my Ibanez or Alvarez instruments but how much of that difference could be attributed to the bracing Gibson used, the actual pieces of wood and the finish (nitro vs. poly)?

Just wondering...

PJ

[fazool]

if the build quality and the geometry are all identical, different body woods will contribute a little bit the the sound of a guitar. This comes from three factors (I think):

1) the reflectance properties of the surface of wood to bounce sound waves off the surface and contribute to internal resonance, Helmholtz effect etc.

2) the flexibility of the wood to absorb internal sound waves by moving (like a flag moves when hit with wind gusts). This movement absorbs some sound and this will happen at varying levels for different frequencies.

3) the wood's internal damping which will change how much sound is absorbed when transmitted around the body, itself.

On paper....or rather, in my mind.....I think these are reasonable factors.

The question is not "do they affect the sound?" but "how much do they affect the sound?"

To make things more complicated #3 is actually a contributing factor in #2 and #1 and each may have differing levels of effect for varying frequencies and based upon geometries etc.

[Theleman]

From my opinion, I quite like sounds from laminated guitars.

As long as action is good, and intonation is right, then any guitars can play and sound nice.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

I'm not about to contribute to this discussion because I really don't know about the sonic principles of various woods, be they solid or laminates/plys/layers.

But I do have some questions and some obserations:

1. Taking out those guitars with a layered/laminated tops, how much do the sides and backs of guitars contribute to the actual sound of an acoustic guitar?

From my very limited knowledge and research, I've learned it's the top of the guitar that makes the sound, vibrating much like a speaker cone. The string is plucked, the resulting energy is transferred to the top via the saddle and bridge, the top vibrates producing a sound wave and the note is heard. it seems obvious also the top is producing a sound wave both forwards out and away from the instrument and inwards into the body cavity.

2. So is the existence of this inward facing sound wave the reason we have a sound hole in acoustics? So it can escape the body and be heard?

It seems to (remember, I really don't know very much...) it shouldn't really matter if the sides and backs are solid or laminated if the interior wood surface the sound waves encounter is the appropriate wood species.

That is, does a thin solid piece of rosewood reflect sound differently than a thin veneer of rosewood over poplar?

3. Could this difference we hear between all solid wood instruments and their solid top with laminated b/s be more about the quality of the top wood and it's bracing more than the b/s lamination or lack thereof? Could it be that most all solid wood guitars simply have "better" tops than their laminated cousins? Perhaps the laminated b/s instruments generally don't get the "best" top woods since they will be at a lower price point anyway?

There is no doubt my Gibson all solid wood J15 has richer bass and overall tones than my Ibanez or Alvarez instruments but how much of that difference could be attributed to the bracing Gibson used, the actual pieces of wood and the finish (nitro vs. poly)?

Just wondering...

PJ

Sides not so much, back depends on if it is thick and braced heavy (not much effect) or thinner and braced light. The wavelengths of the sound from a guitar is long as compared to the body cavity and you will not get much reflection off the back on any kind of wood. The sound hole is to create the Helmholtz resonance, the same as if you blow across the top of a bottle. It may be as you say, with the solid wood guitar more thought was put in to getting a better sound out of the wood.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

It seems to (remember, I really don't know very much...) it shouldn't really matter if the sides and backs are solid or laminated if the interior wood surface the sound waves encounter is the appropriate wood species.

That is, does a thin solid piece of rosewood reflect sound differently than a thin veneer of rosewood over poplar?

I think that may be impossible to answer. To test it out, we'd have to have two identically constructed guitars, one with solid rosewood back and sides, and one with rosewood laminate. I don't know of any two guitars that will satisfy those criteria.

Clearly the sympathetic vibrations of the wood and the reflections within the body hold the key, and I would expect the elastic properties of the rosewood laminate to be different from the solid rosewood, even though the surfaces are the same.

The simplest way to hear the difference is through the Taylor 200 DLX series (it has to be DLX so you get the tonewood laminate on the inside and well as outside). I've played two koa laminate 214ce DLXs, and two quilted maple laminate 214ce DLXs. I can't hear any significant difference between two koas. I can't hear any significant difference between the two maples. But maple versus koa .. well, they're so different that at first I thought they must be constructed differently. They don't seem to be. The maple laminate is light on the bass, clear treble, short sustain, lovely for playing individual notes, but more hard work when strumming. The koa laminate has rich plummy bass, raw and exciting top end, long sustain, and sounds great when strumming.

What the differences would be if the back and sides were solid koa and maple, and the construction identical, well, I don't think we'll ever have the opportunity to try that out. The use of laminate means Taylor can construct the back differently, without bracing. The design is dependent on the use of laminate, or so I believe.

[drawshot1975]

Here's my 2 cents...and I can make change.

I have the pleasure of owning several solid wood guitars from Taylor (see signature, below). Two of them are GA ce models.

My most recent guitar purchase has been a 214ce DLX. Obviously, a laminated / layered/ ply version of the same build.

After a couple days playing the same songs on all three, for comparison purposes, I can sincerely state that the 214ce is every bit as incredible as the 614ce and the 814ce DLX.

Are there minute differences that someone else may hear? Possibly.

Would 99% of the general population notice those differences? Nope.

All I can say, for certain, is that my plywood Taylor is a BEAST of a guitar, and represents the manufacturer proudly. If I was ever a 1-guitar guy, I could live a full and happy life with my laminated rosewood 214ce.

YMMV.

[guitar george]

I built, with the help of many others, a music room in my backyard in the 1990's and we applied various techniques to reduce sound transmission to try to keep the neighbours happy. One technique was to reduce the use of materials that were stiff. Stiffness, such as in laminated wood (plywood), does not absorb sound very well and contributes to sound transmission. Softness, such as in insulation and acoustic foam does absorb sound very well and does not contribute to sound transmission.

Conclusion: A guitar made from laminated wood will transmit sound far better than a guitar made from acoustic foam.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by drawshot1975

My most recent guitar purchase has been a 214ce DLX. Obviously, a laminated / layered/ ply version of the same build.

After a couple days playing the same songs on all three, for comparison purposes, I can sincerely state that the 214ce is every bit as incredible as the 614ce and the 814ce DLX.

I have a 914ce and an 810e (I slightly wish, after two years hindsight, I'd bought an 814 instead of the 810). They are wonderful guitars, with solid rosewood b&s. But many times, when I pick up my 210e DLX (rosewood laminate), I ask myself "If I were up against the wall and could only own one guitar, could this be THE One?" I'm not sure I can answer the question, but the reason I'm stimulated to ask it is because it is a very fine guitar, and surprises me every time just how good it is.

Are there minute differences that someone else may hear? Possibly.

I don't think I'd describe the differences as minute, but then I have grown very used to the way they each feel and sound.

Would 99% of the general population notice those differences? Nope.

I think you may be right, though I think it may also be true of any specialist area of this sort.

All I can say, for certain, is that my plywood Taylor is a BEAST of a guitar, and represents the manufacturer proudly. If I was ever a 1-guitar guy, I could live a full and happy life with my laminated rosewood 214ce.

Bob Taylor says somewhere (and OK, he's wanting to sell his guitars, but even so I believe him) that if, when he started out, there had been guitars available that were as good as, and as affordable as, the 200 laminate series, he might never have started making guitars. That's not a daft thing to say about them, I think.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by N+1

Bob Taylor says somewhere (and OK, he's wanting to sell his guitars, but even so I believe him) that if, when he started out, there had been guitars available that were as good as, and as affordable as, the 200 laminate series, he might never have started making guitars. That's not a daft thing to say about them, I think.

Never played a Taylor yet but something similar happened to me. I was looking for a guitar smaller than a dred, walked into the showroom and nothing there that appealed to me. Decided to build a guitar myself. Years later I realized they had their smaller complement of guitars behind a wall next to the electric guitars. Would have been much simpler laying down the cash for one but I don't mind the path I took.

[jonbee]

In the past 2 years, while getting back into playing after many decades, I bought the following "solid wood" guitars. auditioning them, as it were:
Yamaha LS16 spruce/rosewood
Vintage Yamaha L10 spruce/rosewood
Yamaha A3M spruce/mahog.
Taylor NS34CE spruce/sapele
Taylor 416CE Ltd cedar/walnut
Taylor 310CE spruce/sapele
Custom spruce/myrtlewood
Also, these "laminated" guitars:
Alvarez Yairi DY-74CEQ spruce/ laminated all rosewood
Alvarez Yairi DY-90 spruce/ laminated all rosewood
Result- the Yairis outperformed all the solids except for the 416 in the aspects normally associated with solids: sustain, harmonic richness, and bass depth, and it wasn't close. They matched the wonderful Taylor 416CE LTD except for a different tonality. The Yairis are also the loudest of all, by far.
Yairi only laminates the same tonewoods in parallel, not different woods crossed like plywood. They also lacquer the insides of bodies.
So, from my experience, some properly executed laminate guitars match up very well with solids. YMMV, as always.
BTW, the keepers were the 416 and the DY-90. One solid, one "laminated" Both beautiful to play and hear.