Laminated guitars

[Mr. Scott]

Would you guys and gals please clear up for me a problem which has been bugging me for some time, and that is what is meant by a laminated top, back or side? Does it mean plywood, where each layer is laid at 90 degrees to its neighbour, or does the grain of each laminate lie parallel? Or are there subtle variations where some manufacturers mean one thing and others another?
Please help, I need to sleep easily.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Mr. Scott

Would you guys and gals please clear up for me a problem which has been bugging me for some time, and that is what is meant by a laminated top, back or side? Does it mean plywood, where each layer is laid at 90 degrees to its neighbour, or does the grain of each laminate lie parallel? Or are there subtle variations where some manufacturers mean one thing and others another?
Please help, I need to sleep easily.

I really can't help you with this. I know there are differences but I wouldn't lose any sleep over the lamination techniques the reputable manufacturers use.
The proof is in the tone.

[CoolerKing]

The short answer is yes, laminated is what you're describing. The two exceptions that come immediately to mind:

1) Taylor GS Mini arched backs which are solid wood with veneer (IMHO different from true laminates or composites.)

2) Various maker's double tops, i.e. Lowden Jon Gomm signature model, which is spruce and cedar.

[Neil K Walk]

Typically, laminated guitars have had two outer layers of the "show" faces with an inner layer of poplar.

[YamaYairi]

Originally Posted by kwakatak

Typically, laminated guitars have had two outer layers of the "show" faces with an inner layer of poplar.

That's only true on the cheaper guitars. Yairi and other Japanese guitar makers have been making guitars out of high quality laminated tone woods for years. I believe it was Yairi that perfect the process.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by kwakatak

Typically, laminated guitars have had two outer layers of the "show" faces with an inner layer of poplar.

Is that universally true? I thought that was Taylor who did that. For instance, Seagull laminates cherry. As mentioned, Yairi does its own thing. I think Guild does something else as well.

[Robert1950]

I have a inexpensive laminate guitar, a Fender CP100 parlor. Not the greatest sounding but it is so comfortable and playable. Perfect couch guitar. Virtually unused with a stand. $135Cdn($100US). I would try them first and frown upon them later if they are not up sound/price point. Solid tops and laminate sides/back can be excellent for their sound/price point.

[dgt178]

....individual manufacturer's processes vary.....so, no...they're not all alike....but for the price point.....there are some pretty nice ones out there...

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

That's only true on the cheaper guitars. Yairi and other Japanese guitar makers have been making guitars out of high quality laminated tone woods for years. I believe it was Yairi that perfect the process.

No, actually, it was Epiphone in the early 1930's, back when Epiphone was still an independent company based in New York. Gibson in the US and Selmer over in France quickly followed suit - all of those Selmer and Selmer Maccaferri "gypsy jazz" guitars, as made famous by Django Reinhardt, had solid tops with laminated backs and sides:

Django Reinhardt and his Selmer "petit bouche" guitar

Our view of laminated woods in acoustic guitar construction has really been colored by the flood of inexpensive Asian-made guitars that began showing up in North America in the late 1960's, and which have dominated the entry level end of the market ever since. But it was considered a major technological advance in the 1930's, and so during that era laminated woods were deliberately used on high end professional quality instruments.

Anyway, the point is that there are laminates and there are laminates. The laminated woods that Gibson and Guild use for their pressed arched back acoustic guitars are of very high quality, as are the laminates used on archtop electrics like the Gibson 335.

In acoustic guitar construction, the three layers of solid cherry used for Seagull and Simon & Patrick guitar backs and sides are also of excellent quality.

So the use of laminates in acoustic guitar construction is a choice, and sometimes it's an excellent choice for musical reasons: the guitar Django played probably wouldn't have sounded the same or projected as well had it been made of all-solid woods. And truthfully, I like the sound of the solid top/laminated back and sides Seagulls and Simon & Patricks better than I like their more expensive all-solid wood models.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Mr. Scott

Would you guys and gals please clear up for me a problem which has been bugging me for some time, and that is what is meant by a laminated top, back or side? Does it mean plywood, where each layer is laid at 90 degrees to its neighbour, or does the grain of each laminate lie parallel? Or are there subtle variations where some manufacturers mean one thing and others another?
Please help, I need to sleep easily.

Not all laminates are equal. An unfinished solid wood Indian Rosewood back will be about 0.12" thick. A laminate will be 3-ply, with two 0.004-0.006" Rosewood veneers on top of a center mystery wood cut about 0.090-0.091. On a good laminate, the center wood will be a less expensive solid wood. For example Taylor and Yamaha uses solid Poplar as the laminate core wood. Other companies use everything from plywood to hard foam. Taylor has said they can hear no distinguishable difference between laminate Rosewood and laminate Mahagony back and sides. I take that to mean the tone is coming from the core wood and not the index card thin venner, which makes sense.

[Mr. Scott]

Thankyou to all for replying. As I now understand it, the grain of the (usually) 3 laminates lie parallel with the lesser wood hidden from sight.
I must say I've had some truly great guitars over the years which had partial laminate construction and although I no longer own any full-blown acoustics of that type, I have an ES339, ES335 and Eastman AR371 all of which are 100% laminated. Horses for courses I suppose. It's such a pity that laminate construction is still looked down upon to a certain extent, but as some of you mentioned, makers such as Taylor and Gibson seem to make a good job of it.
Thanks again.

[Gmountain]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

Not all laminates are equal. An unfinished solid wood Indian Rosewood back will be about 0.12" thick. A laminate will be 3-ply, with two 0.004-0.006" Rosewood veneers on top of a center mystery wood cut about 0.090-0.091. On a good laminate, the center wood will be a less expensive solid wood. For example Taylor and Yamaha uses solid Poplar as the laminate core wood. Other companies use everything from plywood to hard foam. Taylor has said they can hear no distinguishable difference between laminate Rosewood and laminate Mahagony back and sides. I take that to mean the tone is coming from the core wood and not the index card thin venner, which makes sense.

Which companies use foam?

[fazool]

The word "ply" is a noun that means a thin layer. Laminate is a verb that means to bond on top of one another.

Part of the confusion is the wording used.

The most popular plywood is home construction wood, where junk wood is layered at 90 degrees to greatly increase strength. Because of the popularity the name "plywood" became synonymous with this low-cost, low-quality home construction wood.

All plywood is laminated.

All laminated wood is made of plys.

The guitar industry does it much differently and deliberately distanced themselves from the word "plywood" and used "laminated wood" instead - strictly as a marketing ploy to avoid confusion.

OK, that said, the words are technically interchangeable.

The question, as discussed already, is "how the plys are laminated together":

Are they laminated in parallal or perpendicular?
Are they two layers (double top) or three (more common plywood)
Is the center of a 3-ply laminate "good" wood or junk filler?
Are the three layers equal thicknesses or is it a thick center with thin (veneer) outer layers?

[Fatstrat]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

Not all laminates are equal. An unfinished solid wood Indian Rosewood back will be about 0.12" thick. A laminate will be 3-ply, with two 0.004-0.006" Rosewood veneers on top of a center mystery wood cut about 0.090-0.091. On a good laminate, the center wood will be a less expensive solid wood. For example Taylor and Yamaha uses solid Poplar as the laminate core wood. Other companies use everything from plywood to hard foam. Taylor has said they can hear no distinguishable difference between laminate Rosewood and laminate Mahagony back and sides. I take that to mean the tone is coming from the core wood and not the index card thin venner, which makes sense.

I find this extremely interesting. Because I can certainly hear the difference between the tones of laminate Rosewood and laminate Mahogany B&S guitars.
A good example is a recent experience I had in playing 2 attractively priced Yamaha guitars at a pawnshop. A laminate Nato B&S/solid top FG-700S. And a laminate Rosewood B&S/solid top FG-730S. Both w/similar condition strings. The only variable might be the brand of strings. The difference in tone was very apparent on these otherwise exact same design guitars. I bought the 730S.
And I would encourage anyone who thinks that there's no difference to take the "Yamaha challenge" and sample these 2 models. And see if you don't hear the difference.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by fazool

The word "ply" is a noun that means a thin layer. Laminate is a verb that means to bond on top of one another.

Part of the confusion is the wording used.

The most popular plywood is home construction wood, where junk wood is layered at 90 degrees to greatly increase strength. Because of the popularity the name "plywood" became synonymous with this low-cost, low-quality home construction wood.

All plywood is laminated.

All laminated wood is made of plys.

The guitar industry does it much differently and deliberately distanced themselves from the word "plywood" and used "laminated wood" instead - strictly as a marketing ploy to avoid confusion.

OK, that said, the words are technically interchangeable.

The question, as discussed already, is "how the plys are laminated together":

Are they laminated in parallal or perpendicular?
Are they two layers (double top) or three (more common plywood)
Is the center of a 3-ply laminate "good" wood or junk filler?
Are the three layers equal thicknesses or is it a thick center with thin (veneer) outer layers?

Reading your reply, I would envision all layered wood to be dozens of thin layers... When a builder uses a solid wood core and puts to thin veneers on top of it, technically it is laminate, but that's going to be different than layering a half dozen thin pieces of wood together and using high pressure to form a composite... I can distinguish the difference

While plywood may have an explicit definition, in the guitar industry I feel the term is ambiguous. Yairi guitars are entirely laminate and in an entirely different league than a $100 Epiphone or Yamaha laminate. Taylor and Yamaha's technique for building "laminate" back and sides is different than many builders as well. Maybe this is why Taylor started using the term "layered" instead of "laminate". Then again maybe it's just marking.