Beginner's tips- Chordal relationships- "chunking"

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by MrDB

I've seen James Taylor play that way. Not sure if he does it all the time.

IIRC he played it that way on Fire and Rain.

Yes... And he also plays a D chord 2-3-1 rather than the tradition 1-3-2. I find both a bit awkward and in the context of Fire and Rain (IMO) unnecessary and uncomfortable. But everyone is different- and who can argue with James Taylor? I can see how one might like the A/2-3-1 to be beneficial in a similar way as 2-1-3 but I find it easier to tuck the index finger down into the others with 2-1-3.

P.S.... Thanks for the thought. I needed to revisit Fire and Rain and relearn it as JT played it. I'm learning some new tricks from it myself.

[rick-slo]

I usually form chord shapes in the air on the way to the frets - block finger movement rather than reliance on guide fingers.
First position open chords E-A-D would usually be 231-234- 132 (or 121).

[mattbn73]

Went to workshop once where a guy chunked chords by shape, without regard to function. Used D7 to teach B7. Never occurred to me do that. I think we're slaves to theory and preconceived notions sometimes.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I usually form chord shapes in the air on the way to the frets - block finger movement rather than reliance on guide fingers.
First position open chords E-A-D would usually be 231-234- 132 (or 121).

Most developed players don't waste any time moving from one shape or note to the next. You don't want to leave gaps in the sound and do whatever is most efficient to achieve the end of continuous sound, except when intentionally damping.

Originally Posted by mattbn73

Went to workshop once where a guy chunked chords by shape, without regard to function. Used D7 to teach B7. Never occurred to me do that. I think we're slaves to theory and preconceived notions sometimes.

That's the point. Paired association learning. You use what you know and apply it to the next thing. While this thread has mostly focused on the A chord and how it's fingered and moved, the G-C-F lateral movement has the same concept as the D7 to B7 example you cited (I'm going to have to adopt that one- thanks). IMO it's powerful stuff for the new player.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Most developed players don't waste any time moving from one shape or note to the next. You don't want to leave gaps in the sound and do whatever is most efficient to achieve the end of continuous sound, except when intentionally damping.

Frequently the changes in chord notes cannot be done in a truly legato manner (in the way one might be able to do when
playing single note runs (double stop runs also perhaps). Deal with that in part by forming the chord shapes quickly and
by timing the leaving of prior chords to reach the next chord at the correct instant. Naturally many styles of music do not
call for legato anyway and are to purposely, to one degree or another, staccato.

[SunnyDee]

Re: JAMES TAYLOR

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Yes... And he also plays a D chord 2-3-1 rather than the tradition 1-3-2. I find both a bit awkward and in the context of Fire and Rain (IMO) unnecessary and uncomfortable. But everyone is different- and who can argue with James Taylor? I can see how one might like the A/2-3-1 to be beneficial in a similar way as 2-1-3 but I find it easier to tuck the index finger down into the others with 2-1-3.

P.S.... Thanks for the thought. I needed to revisit Fire and Rain and relearn it as JT played it. I'm learning some new tricks from it myself.

I play these the way JT does and the open Em, too. I didn't know he did that when I learned. I was just teaching myself and derived the fingerings that worked best for me. In some video, JT says that he derived the fingerings himself when he was learning on his own as a kid. I think it's because we both preferred to keep an anchor whenever possible and not to switch the order of fingers when we didn't need to. These days, I find myself more often playing the mini-barre A and D, though.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Re: JAMES TAYLOR



I play these the way JT does and the open Em, too. I didn't know he did that when I learned. I was just teaching myself and derived the fingerings that worked best for me. In some video, JT says that he derived the fingerings himself when he was learning on his own as a kid. I think it's because we both preferred to keep an anchor whenever possible and not to switch the order of fingers when we didn't need to. These days, I find myself more often playing the mini-barre A and D, though.

I'll fairly frequently do an A bar with my first finger for a lot of different stuff. The mini D bar is a bit awkward for me, but at times it's the lesser of two evils when I have to have the bass walk down to a C# which I have to depress with my pinky. Playing D with 1 & 2 gives me a bit better stretch for my pinky. It's a bit of a struggle but I can play that pattern both ways. But more often than not I'll play A 2-1-3 so I can lift my finger and play Asus2 which often leads to D9 which I can play in root position or 3rd inversion by keeping the E down on the D string.

[DupleMeter]

I always started my students off with this idea. I called it ”pivot finger" or "common finger". I came up with this whole finger relationship chart for the chords to help them get playing chords fast so we could get into songs. I haven't taught in years, but I believe I started with: A > D > E & then to D > G > A. I always tried to go to a I IV V pattern in a new, but related, key by adding 1 new chord.

FWIW that's how I learned to play an A major. 2 1 3. The beauty of it is that an A7 is as simple as lifting your index finger. Always taught it that way & then moved to the single finger barre version once the student built up some strength & endurance.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Frequently the changes in chord notes cannot be done in a truly legato manner.

Trombone players have had to deal with this issue for centuries. However if you think about it, "common fingers" can be held down while other fingers move into position. Going from A to D, the A (s2/f2) can stay down if you're used a 2-1-3 fingering on the A chord. G to G7 can continue to ring as you move the high G down to the F for the 7th if you've played the G chord 3-2-4. Barred Dm to Dm7, etc same thing. While there are frequently changes where you must release all fingers momentarily, often it is a matter of making good fingering choices, part of my original point in this thread.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

FWIW that's how I learned to play an A major. 2 1 3. The beauty of it is that
is an A7 is as simple as lifting your index finger.

A7: fingering 123 simply lift 2 or 234 simply life 3. However so much depends on context. Generally I prefer an even break from a chord rather than a string slide up or down.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Generally I prefer an even break from a chord rather than a string slide up or down.

Don't forget that you have a right hand too which contributes greatly to the mix of sound. And it it important to note that to be a really good rhythm player you have to know what to accent, what to mute and when. One's palette of sounds is only limited by one's skill and fluidity. Of course we all like even breaks from chords, probably often. But the indicator of one's skill is to be able to make the changes without sounding like there are huge breaks. When phrasing any type of music often the key is to keep the forward motion of the feel, keeping the sound into or even over bar lines. Even though we're talking basic guitar technique here, it is important for newer players to establish the best habits which ultimately contribute to maximum musicality.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Don't forget that you have a right hand too which contributes greatly to the mix of sound. And it it important to note that to be a really good rhythm player you have to know what to accent, what to mute and when. One's palette of sounds is only limited by one's skill and fluidity. Of course we all like even breaks from chords, probably often. But the indicator of one's skill is to be able to make the changes without sounding like there are huge breaks. When phrasing any type of music often the key is to keep the forward motion of the feel, keeping the sound into or even over bar lines. Even though we're talking basic guitar technique here, it is important for newer players to establish the best habits which ultimately contribute to maximum musicality.

All true of course. Somewhat drifting into general topics one could discuss at length.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Generally I prefer an even break from a chord rather than a string slide up or down.

I think it depends on the style and what the music calls for. Both have their place.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I think it depends on the style and what the music calls for. Both have their place.

Naturally, however teaching a beginner basic chords, probably in a strumming context, one probably uses their basic
go to fingerings.