Active versus passive undersaddle transducers with the Fishman Aura

Jay Menon · #1 10-05-2008, 05:52 AM

I wonder whether I may bother you for your expert advice on this one...

I have a Martin 000 clone (a really great one made by Recording King) in which I recently had fitted a Fishman AGX-125 passive undersaddle transducer (UST). I already have the old Fishman Aura Blender (16-bit), but am very interested to purchase a newer 24-bit Aura Orchestra pedal.

The problem is that I read that the Aura pedal does not work very well with the passive AG series pickup - and that Fishman recommends the active Acoustic Matrix pickup.
http://reviews.harmony-central.com/r...ing+Pedal/10/1

I'm a bit stuck, since my AGX-125 is brand new...So what are my options?

1. Would adding a Fishman Powerjack effectively solve the problem, by making the system active?

2. Fitting an Acoustic Matrix and then trying to sell the AG125 on fleabay?

3. I don't really want to fit an on-board Aura, since I understand that it is 16-bit, like the Fishman blender...

Most grateful for your advice...

Regards

Jay

PS. I am very aware that all of you favour miking up an acoustic - and I plan to do position a couple of microphones, in addition to the Aura. It's just that I play and record on my own in one small room and I rather suspect that in my situation sadly, the aura is going to sound better...

open-road-matt · #2 10-05-2008, 06:35 AM

Jay,
You could try using a Pick Up The World Power Plug:

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/preamps.htm

It's a mini preamp with a volume knob that plugs into your end pin jack. That could give you the "active" pickup you need for the Aura without having to make any changes to your setup.

I use the Stereo Power Plug to preamp my Sunrise/K&K set up when I'm not using my Pendulum.

Matt

Herb Hunter · #3 10-05-2008, 07:01 AM

The Fishman Powerjack would make your passive pickup compatible with the Aura but as I read your post, I immediately thought of the same preamp that Open-Road-Matt recommended. It is more expensive, however, than the PowerJack but it doesn't require installation inside the guitar and can be as easily moved from one guitar to another.

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/preamps.htm

Joe Barbieri · #4 10-05-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Menon

I wonder whether I may bother you for your expert advice on this one...

I have a Martin 000 clone (a really great one made by Recording King) in which I recently had fitted a Fishman AGX-125 passive undersaddle transducer (UST). I already have the old Fishman Aura Blender (16-bit), but am very interested to purchase a newer 24-bit Aura Orchestra pedal.

The problem is that I read that the Aura pedal does not work very well with the passive AG series pickup - and that Fishman recommends the active Acoustic Matrix pickup.
http://reviews.harmony-central.com/r...ishman/Aura+Or chestra+Imaging+Pedal/10/1

I'm a bit stuck, since my AGX-125 is brand new...So what are my options?

1. Would adding a Fishman Powerjack effectively solve the problem, by making the system active?

2. Fitting an Acoustic Matrix and then trying to sell the AG125 on fleabay?

3. I don't really want to fit an on-board Aura, since I understand that it is 16-bit, like the Fishman blender...

Most grateful for your advice...

Regards

Jay

PS. I am very aware that all of you favour miking up an acoustic - and I plan to do position a couple of microphones, in addition to the Aura. It's just that I play and record on my own in one small room and I rather suspect that in my situation sadly, the aura is going to sound better...

Hi Jay,
Quick correctrion. The Onboard Aura is not currently available as an aftermarket retail product so that option is moot. However, it does use the newer 24 bit processor with 32 bit A/D conversion, As does the Ellipse Aura, which is available to you as a retail product. All current Fishman Aura products use this processor. I am a big fan of using the Matrix Infinity with the Aura but before you do anything, try the AG direct into your Aura Blender. The input stage of the Aura pedals is pretty wide range and it may work fine for you. If not, my advice would be to go with the Infinity and save the AG for for another guitar.

Jay Menon · #5 10-05-2008, 08:36 AM

Dear Joe

Thank you for your clear and concise reply. I erroneously assumed that the Fishman Ellipse Aura is an 'on-board' Aura, since it sits inside the guitar itself...! I see what you mean though - the on-board aura must therefore be the one factory-fitted to guitars with dedicated sound images...

I must point out though, that I was unable to find confirmation on the Fishman website that the Ellipse Aura is 24 bit. Thanks for clarifying that point for me. Had I known that earlier, I would have fitted an Ellipse Aura to my RK...

I really love this Recording King 000 guitar (I have a Taylor 710 that I no longer play, since I got the RK). I'm now torn as to which way to go - intuitively I feel that the 24bit processing would be an audible improvement over the 16 bit blender, especially for fairly transparent songs with only voice and acoustic guitar.

I also note that the AG series of USTs come in different lengths, obviously for different string spacings at the bridge (AG125 for 2.125” String Spacing and AGX-125 for 2.3125” String Spacing). Does the UST supplied with the Ellipse Aura also come in different lengths?

Therefore in order that I don't wind up making another expensive mistake, I would be very grateful if you would kindly advise me re: your recommendations / choice between

1. AGX125 - Powerjack - Aura Orchestra Pedal

2. Acoustic Matrix - Aura Orchestra Pedal

3. Ellipse Aura

Kind regards

Jay

guitaniac · #6 10-05-2008, 11:30 AM

Jay,

If you should happen to decide on a PUTW Power Plug, be sure to request that it comes with a gain control. The current standard Power Plug doesn't have a gain control and the Fishman passive UST signal will overdrive it, causing severe distortion. (The current Power Plug is set up to accomodate PUTW's passive film UST. The Fishman passive UST is a ceramic UST with a much stronger output.)

One of our open mic participants bought a Power Plug because we'd used my own Power Plug with his Fishman AG-90 equipped guitar on a few occasions. Unlike my older model Power Plug, however, his new Power Plug had no gain control and the passive Fishman UST overdrove it severely. Fortunately, the PUTW folks were happy to add a gain control to his Power Plug for no charge. He could have saved himself some trouble and shipping expense, however, if he had asked for a gain control at the outset.

Gary

open-road-matt · #7 10-05-2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Jay,

If you should happen to decide on a PUTW Power Plug, be sure to request that it comes with a gain control.
Gary

That's good to know! The Stereo Power Plug does come with gain controls so I incorrectly assumed they all did!

Herb Hunter · #8 10-05-2008, 05:12 PM

I believe all the current Pick-up the World Power Plug preamps have a volume control. The only one that comes to mind that doesn't have a volume control is the End Pin Preamp that fits inside the guitar's jack like the Fishman Powerjack.

open-road-matt · #9 10-05-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

I believe all the current Pick-up the World Power Plug preamps have a volume control. The only one that comes to mind that doesn't have a volume control is the End Pin Preamp that fits inside the guitar's jack like the Fishman Powerjack.

I think Gary was talking about being able to adjust the input gain. My Stereo Power Plug has both input gain knobs and volume knobs.

I just looked at the plan (non-stereo) Power Plug and found this in the description:

"A handy volume control on the top of the box allows one to turn down the volume, mute the output, and change instruments or take a break without pops, hum, or noise. There is a small gain trim control on the bottom of the box that allows the pre-amp to be fine tuned to work with any pickup or application."

So maybe they have decided to include the gain trim control on all models.

Matt

rainsong · #10 10-05-2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Menon

PS. I am very aware that all of you favour miking up an acoustic - and I plan to do position a couple of microphones, in addition to the Aura. It's just that I play and record on my own in one small room and I rather suspect that in my situation sadly, the aura is going to sound better...

I have been told that using an Aura in conjunction with a mic is not advisable because of phase cancellation issues. However, I have done some pseudo stereo recordings where I have recorded the guitar through an Aura at the same time as an external condensor mic to 2 seperate channels and then pan hard right and left with some good results.

Boneyard75 · #11 10-05-2008, 10:12 PM

I would highly recommend the Fishman Infinity....I am very happy going into the Aura pedal from the Infinity & then into a decent preamp with a DI to give you some EQ....The best live sound I've ever had & I've tried a lot of pickups & a lot of preamps....The Infinity is a vast improvement from Fishman's past UST systems.
Boneyard

guitaniac · #12 10-05-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

I think Gary was talking about being able to adjust the input gain. My Stereo Power Plug has both input gain knobs and volume knobs.

I just looked at the plan (non-stereo) Power Plug and found this in the description:

"A handy volume control on the top of the box allows one to turn down the volume, mute the output, and change instruments or take a break without pops, hum, or noise. There is a small gain trim control on the bottom of the box that allows the pre-amp to be fine tuned to work with any pickup or application."

So maybe they have decided to include the gain trim control on all models.

Matt

Or maybe that description is dated back to the older model which did include a gain control. I'd check with PUTW about the current status of the Power Plug. David Enke is always tinkering with stuff, so its possible that the current standard Power Plug (once again) includes a gain control.

On the other hand, two players who I know personally received Power Plugs without gain controls within the past 18 months. Both of them purchased their Power Plugs on my recommendation, so I was a little upset to find that it wouldn't work properly with the passive Fishman UST-equipped rig. (The other rig worked well {sans gain control} because the Power Plug was matched with a PUTW "I/O" UST. There was no need for a gain adjustment in that situation.)

Gary

guitaniac · #13 10-05-2008, 10:54 PM

On the subject of strap-jack preamps, I'm fairly intrigued by this dual source preamp, from Schatten Design, with adjustable gains and phantom power capability. Considering the dirt-cheap price, though, I have to wonder if there might be a catch of some kind. I suppose it could suffer from a poor "slew rate" or some other handicap - or (alternatively) its simply a very efficient design and a great value.
http://schattendesign.com/artist_preamp.htm

Gary