Economic condensers for Church choir?

[joeguam]

Hello AGF,

This is not a "WTB" or any type of ad, it's a cry for help!

My fiance and I lead the music ministry for our church and we're in need of some condenser mic replacements. As with any church, we don't have much budget so I'm reaching out to the forum to see if anyone knows of any President's Day deals for condensers? We were able to find a great deal on mic stands in this weekend's sale so we used our own money and donated 6 of them for the cause. Of course we're not expecting the highest quality mics but hoping to find a model that has worked well for other choirs.

If you have any suggestions, please provide a link or any contact info.

Thanks so much in advance!

...
Joe

[PorkPieGuy]

I don't know about for a choir, but I record with my matched pair of Behringer C2 microphones. You actually get two mics, clips, windscreens, a stereo bar, and a hardshell plastic case for one price. Looks like the going rate is about $55 for the set. Seems like I found mine for less than $50. I've used mine live, and they do pretty well. I'm happy with them.

[Bonenut65]

Sweetwater.com has a presidents day sale going on, Its worth a look. The service excellent and they usually ship quick.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by joeguam

Hello AGF,

This is not a "WTB" or any type of ad, it's a cry for help!

My fiance and I lead the music ministry for our church and we're in need of some condenser mic replacements. As with any church, we don't have much budget so I'm reaching out to the forum to see if anyone knows of any President's Day deals for condensers? We were able to find a great deal on mic stands in this weekend's sale so we used our own money and donated 6 of them for the cause. Of course we're not expecting the highest quality mics but hoping to find a model that has worked well for other choirs.

If you have any suggestions, please provide a link or any contact info.

Thanks so much in advance!

...
Joe

Joe,

How many people are in your choir? I'm just wondering why you bought 6 mic stands, and what type of stands those were. Typically, you'd want 1 mic per 12-15 singers, and properly spaced above the heads of the tallest singers. There's also a 3:1 rule to consider, for mic-spacing, otherwise, you may have comb-filtering issues.

[cotten]

Bobby's asking some very good questions. I wouldn't use 6 mics unless my choir had 60-80 members. (We use 2 for 30.) No offense, but it sounds to me like you need some expert, real time advice from someone who can ask you a lot more questions before giving you appropriate suggestions. Brent Leuthold, one of the sales guys at Sweetwater, has been a big help to me on occasion.

Finding the right mic at a good price today would be good, but buying the wrong mic at a good price today might not, especially if you really need six and can't afford much. I'd recommend taking your time and getting the right mic, rather than pouncing on a good deal on something that might not be best suited for what you need.

cotten

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by cotten

Bobby's asking some very good questions. I wouldn't use 6 mics unless my choir had 60-80 members. (We use 2 for 30.) No offense, but it sounds to me like you need some expert, real time advice from someone who can ask you a lot more questions before giving you appropriate suggestions. Brent Leuthold, one of the sales guys at Sweetwater, has been a big help to me on occasion.

Finding the right mic at a good price today would be good, but buying the wrong mic at a good price today might not, especially if you really need six and can't afford much. I'd recommend taking your time and getting the right mic, rather than pouncing on a good deal on something that might not be best suited for what you need.

cotten

100% agreement, and Joe,,,,, placing the right mic(s) will be equally important.(height), as will the angling of that mic. You might want to reconsider the stands you're looking at. You may be better off suspending the mic from the ceiling, or,,, using a tall boom-stand;,,,and that will depend on how many rows are in your choir, and how those rows are "stepped" (elevation difference front-to-back.)

Here's some good choir-mic'ing info from Sennheiser. The 3;1 rule should be well explained here.

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/houses-...s_Choir-Miking

[pieterh]

In my experience it depends on the venue - some churchs have so much natural resonance that it can pay dividends using a few more mikes closer to the choir. Also it can be beneficial to use seperate mikes for different ranges (alt, sop, ten, bas) in order to distinguish the different parts.

What's more it can depend on the physical layout - if it is a large choir spread out then a pair of mikes will certainly do the job but at the risk of losing some of the substance of the sound. This is particularly true of mixed choirs - in my experience male voices are underrepresented and need to be brought up in the mix to balance with the female sections.

Back to the op's question, whichever you settle for make sure they are directional and not omnis, especially for a very resonant space. You haven't said your budget but the old reliable AKG C535 is one of the best all round condensers there is and until recently were my mainstay for choirs at our theatre (I've since bought in 4 Neumann KMS105s which do the job even better though I usually complement with a couple of the 535s).

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by Bobby1note

100% agreement, and,,,, placing the right mic(s) will be equally important.(height), as will the angling of that mic. You might want to reconsider the stands you're looking at. You may be better off suspending the mic from the ceiling, or,,, using a tall boom-stand;,,,and that will depend on how many rows are in your choir, and how those rows are "stepped" (elevation difference front-to-back.)

Here's some good choir-mic'ing info from Sennheiser. The 3;1 rule should be well explained here.

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/houses-...s_Choir-Miking

A great link, thanks for sharing!

[joeguam]

Originally Posted by Bobby1note

Here's some good choir-mic'ing info from Sennheiser. The 3;1 rule should be well explained here.

http://www.sennheiserusa.com/houses-...s_Choir-Miking

Thank you for sharing this link, this is very much the info I've been looking for.

I'm not going to lie, I don't have much experience mixing sound for church choirs. Although I've been gigging since 2000 (and pretty much mixing sound for every band I've been in) I've only used dynamics for our vocals.

This is all really great information, can't thank you all enough. Truly this is a blessing. Most of our choir members are too shy to sing solo close up into a dynamic. Unfortunately, the more I read the 3:1 article, the more I realize we bought the wrong mic stands and actually need boom stands. We have two condensers right now that aren't very good (give a lot of "noise") but I should try these tips, reposition them and see if what we have will work. Not spending is much better than spending for something we don't need.

Headed to church in an hour, bringing my personal boom stand and going to try using just one condenser as we only have 12-15 singers on a level floor spanning 3 rows back.

Thanks again and if anyone has any additional advice, I'd be grateful.

Cheers!

...
Joe

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by joeguam

Thank you for sharing this link, this is very much the info I've been looking for.

I'm not going to lie, I don't have much experience mixing sound for church choirs. Although I've been gigging since 2000 (and pretty much mixing sound for every band I've been in) I've only used dynamics for our vocals.

This is all really great information, can't thank you all enough. Truly this is a blessing. Most of our choir members are too shy to sing solo close up into a dynamic. Unfortunately, the more I read the 3:1 article, the more I realize we bought the wrong mic stands and actually need boom stands. We have two condensers right now that aren't very good (give a lot of "noise") but I should try these tips, reposition them and see if what we have will work. Not spending is much better than spending for something we don't need.

Headed to church in an hour, bringing my personal boom stand and going to try using just one condenser as we only have 12-15 singers on a level floor spanning 3 rows back.

Thanks again and if anyone has any additional advice, I'd be grateful.

Cheers!

...
Joe

Joe,

You can go with specialty choir mics that are ceiling-hung. These will usually have a mic-bracket or clamp, that tilts the mic to the proper angle. They may also have anti-twist cables, to prevent the hanging mic from rotating.

If you go with a boom-stand, you'll most like have to go with a studio mic-stand. What's the difference? Well, the studio-stands have VERY heavy bases, which is virtually essential for counter-balancing the weight of a fully extended boom and mic. The bases alone, will usually weigh over 20lbs. (35 lb. total weight) These stands usually include removable locking casters.You MIGHT get away with a lighter-stand, but it's risky. Add some weight to the base, and,,,,, be careful what type of clutch you use to tighten the boom. K&M has a telescopic boom with a "T"-bar locking mechanism. You can tighten these pretty well, but the clutches are small diameter, so there's not a lot of locking-power.

http://www.economik.com/km/211-1-black/ (click image to enlarge)
This type of clutch locking-knob, is not recommended for long booms/heavy mics;
http://www.economik.com/km/21140/

Studio boom-stands will telescope up to 7-8 feet (or more), and that's not including the boom itself, which can also telescope 7' or so. These stands are not cheap, but they're the way to go if you use stands. The clutch on these stands, has to be very robust, to prevent the weight of the mic and the boom, from torquing downward. The booms on these stands, also have adjustable counter-weights.

In the studio, I use a K&M 21430, which is a great stand, but a lil' pricy. Don't even look at the Latch-Lake stands ($$$$). Ultimate Support seems to make a very nice studio mic-stand, and it's pretty reasonably priced IMO. I see a lot of these on professional stages, especially for drum-overheads, etc.

Ultimate support MC-125;

http://www.ultimatesupport.com/product/MC-125
http://www.economik.com/ultimate-support/mc-125/ (click the image to enlarge)

Here's the K&M 21430;
http://www.economik.com/km/21430/

[joeguam]

Bobby, cotten & Pieter,

Thank you all so much for the advice. I'll post some pictures when I get home later but I used one of my boom mic stands (Proline) with JUST ONE condenser and it sounded fabulous! The choir looked real puzzled as I bunched all the other dynamic mics in the corner and placed the single condenser about 2-3 ft in front of the first row and high enough to be pointed at a balanced angle to the chin of those standing in the third row.

I did a sound check quickly before mass (it's hard because most of the choir shows up right before service) and it sounded balanced between the rows. My cousin who was sitting in the congregation said the voices sounded great!

Thanks again so much for all the advice, it's so great knowing that we don't have to spend extra for newer mics. We might upgrade to the Behringer suggestion because we have really old Audix condensers and they push a lot of white noise into the PA (SRM450). Even though I only need one condenser, the Behringer pair would be useful as I could use the 2nd for the baby grand piano (currently using a SM58 vocal mic - it's all I have). Any suggestions on whether I should just stick to the SM58 or use a condenser?

Anyways, I'll post pictures of the church layout as well as the challenge I have with the mics in front of the PA's. It's a long story and a constant uphill battle but the Church Admin folks refuse to move the PA and continue to complain about feedback. That's another thread in itself.

So we're gonna return the 6 mic stands we bought and I guess I still have a day or so to find a great deal on a boom mic stands. I'll look into your suggestions. I love the ultimate support stands (have them for both my JBL EON15's) but just don't know if those might be too expensive - we'll see.

Thanks again and I continue to have an open ear to further suggestions!

Cheers!

...
Joe

[Bobby1note]

Glad to hear it went well Joe. Good stuff.

Regarding your grand piano, I'll try to find you an article on single-mic'ing a grand piano. It involves placing the mic above middle C from what I remember, and aiming the mic directly at the lid of the piano (not the strings). In other words, the mic body is parallel to the keyboard. I'll see if I can find something with illustrations, and I'll add it to this post, as an "edit".

Edit; OK, here's an example. It's a 3-page post, so look at the picture on page 2. The pic shows a Sennheiser MD-421 pointed at the underside of the piano lid.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/w...live_realm/P2/

[joeguam]

Originally Posted by Bobby1note

Glad to hear it went well Joe. Good stuff.

Regarding your grand piano, I'll try to find you an article on single-mic'ing a grand piano. It involves placing the mic above middle C from what I remember, and aiming the mic directly at the lid of the piano (not the strings). In other words, the mic body is parallel to the keyboard. I'll see if I can find something with illustrations, and I'll add it to this post, as an "edit".

Edit; OK, here's an example. It's a 3-page post, so look at the picture on page 2. The pic shows a Sennheiser MD-421 pointed at the underside of the piano lid.

Bobby, the link didn't come through your post can you verify? Thanks!

I use a boom stand and have my SM58 directed right at the middle C hammer pointed almost straight down (in the direction of the floor beneath the piano). This works fine and sounds good when heard from the back of the church, however all that I've read shows them using condensers in the studios - so I'm not sure. I wish everything was as easy as my ukulele or guitar!

Looking forward to that link you were trying to post, if I can get a better sound out of the grand that would be awesome!

...
Joe

[joeguam]

Here's a picture of the choir setup and the way I positioned the condenser today:

(Click photo for larger image)


And here's the layout of the altar with the PA's behind the mics up against the wall:

(Click photo for larger image)


Thanks so much!

...
Joe

[trpullen]

I use http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Pro37 for choir. I really like this mic even though it is not crazy priced. It is fairly resistant to feedback. I use a pair of them Left and Right and then do a large diaphragm condenser mic in the center if the choir is really big. Strangely enough, I have used this setup for anything from 15 to 100 piece choir and it sounds great in each arrangement.