Show and Tell. Your homemade jig for sanding saddle.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I never ever think in terms of a saddle "radius" . When I adjust the action on a customer's guitar, I know exactly what I want the 12th fret height to be on each individual string, and these individual heights (which can vary according to the player's style) can be achieved to an accuracy of .001" if you have the requisite measuring gear. These heights are never any kind of "radius".

I, too, don't think in terms of a saddle "radius" and never set heights to any kind of "radius". However, I don't work to .001" on saddle height or 12th fret string height, for several reasons that I won't bother to go into here. While that might be your accuracy, I suspect that it is not the precision (repeatability) you are able to achieve, for several reasons that I won't bother to go into here.

However, I fully appreciate the efficiency of tracing the end-of-fingerboard curvature onto a saddle blank as a means of accomplishing acceptable results for acoustic guitars.

I would never presume to tell builders how to go about shaping the saddles on their instruments... I am simply detailing how I do it when a customer brings in a guitar whose action is unsatisfactory , and wants it optimized.

That optimization is never achieved by sanding the base of the saddle.

I appreciate that and appreciate that your customers are pleased with your optimization. That your customers are pleased is, ultimately, what matters. If you don't mind my asking, what do you typically charge for such an optimization, since "time is money"?

I know that I cannot - and no customer I have ever had - can tell the difference in a string height that differs by .001" at the 12th fret. So, I'm not really sure the criteria by which you "optimize" playability for an individual player such that it requires an accuracy of .001". I respectfully suggest that is spurious accuracy in a wooden instrument that changes size and shape by more than that with just a few percentage points in humidity change.

It reminds me of an article that appeared in an early Luthier's Mercantile catalogue by a well-known luthier who had calculated, based on the "parabolic" shape of string vibration, to the nearest thousandth of an inch, what the longitudinal curvature of a wooden fingerboard should be to optimize relief. (It's another issue of how to achieve that accuracy in the pre-CNC days of the article.)

[murrmac123]

Charles, I measure to .001" because I can, and because it takes no more effort than to measure to 1/16" or whatever tolerance might be acceptable elsewhere.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

When I adjust the action on a customer's guitar, I know exactly what I want the 12th fret height to be on each individual string, and these individual heights (which can vary according to the player's style) can be achieved to an accuracy of .001" . . . .

My questions for Murray are:

How do you know, to 1/1000 inch, the ideal action height for each string at the 12th fret for a given guitar and player and string set? What makes that precise height ideal?

How do you allow for the action rising and falling with changes in humidity when calculating ideal action?

[charles Tauber]

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[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

My questions for Murray are:

How do you know, to 1/1000 inch, the ideal action height for each string at the 12th fret for a given guitar and player and string set? What makes that precise height ideal?

With respect, Howard, I have at no point claimed to know the "ideal" height.

I know, from countless experiments on my own guitars, of which I have owned many , what I find to be the (much maligned) "lowest buzz-free action" for different styles of picking, and and when I listen to any given player I have a pretty good idea of which group of heights are going to suit for either light or medium gauge.

For any weird alternate tuning I would have to play it by ear, but I would still be adjusting from the top, not the base of the saddle.

Arguing about what tolerance is achievable or desirable is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a needle combined with Zeno's paradox. Will a couple of thou one way or the other make any difference ? Not really ... will three thou make any difference ... probably not . How about 4,5, 10, 20, 30 , 50 thou?

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

How do you allow for the action rising and falling with changes in humidity when calculating ideal action?

Fortunately, here in the UK, such considerations weigh much less than they do in the US ... the action on my guitars (Martins and boutiques) do not vary significantly through the year.

[Ned Milburn]

It seems apparent that certain commenters think accuracy to the thousandth of an inch is "overkill". For me, I also think the thousandth of an inch is a higher degree of accuracy than necessary for this operation. However, if it is comfortable and easy to achieve by certain people (Murmac in this case), then there's no reason to avoid it.

Myself, I take my measurements in "tenths of a mm" but I measure with a scale with half mm increments. It works. Many ways to skin a cat.

I don't think it is fair to come down hard on someone who chooses to use a finer degree of measurement accuracy than many others' choices.

Advice given to me by Ralph Towner that I often quote due to its potency: "If it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't."

[aqualibguitars]

hello sir.
i have made this jig for less than $3.
just a square piece of wood. 2 wooden dowels of 6 mm ( can use dowel pins too)
and 4 ball bearings.
just do little math will making holes for the dowels.
thats it.
but im not able to post foto.
wish u good luck

[stormin1155]

Am I the only person who uses power tools?? I've made hundreds of nuts and saddles, and if I relied in little pieces of sand paper, jigs, and hobby files, I'd have given up long ago.

I start with a chunk of bone I buy at a pet store for a couple of bucks, cut out the approximate size I need using a band saw, carve it to size and shape with my big belt sander, and only use sandpaper for final fitting, smoothing, and polishing. If I am making a compensated saddle, I'll use files.

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

Am I the only person who uses power tools?? I've made hundreds of nuts and saddles, and if I relied in little pieces of sand paper, jigs, and hobby files, I'd have given up long ago.

I start with a chunk of bone I buy at a pet store for a couple of bucks, cut out the approximate size I need using a band saw, carve it to size and shape with my big belt sander, and only use sandpaper for final fitting, smoothing, and polishing. If I am making a compensated saddle, I'll use files.

I do it the same way. I used to buy bones at the pet store, but friends who live on or near farms just give me cow bones for free, so I've got a giant feed sack full of them. Over the years, I've chopped many whole cow femurs into nut and saddle blanks with my bandsaw. I still shape them the way I was trained years ago - I just hold them with my fingers right up against the belt sander, no jig required. I've sanded into my fingernails once or twice (I'm a fingerpicker, so that's not good), and lost a little skin on a couple of occasions when the blank has slipped, but never any incidents that would qualify as an injury - not even a bandaid.

After roughing in the thickness to within a few thousandths (checking as I go with calipers), I switch to a sanding board to achieve final thickness.

[bnjp]

It's like a shooting board. The sanding block moves and you hold the piece still. I usually rough things out on the belt sander then use this to make sure I'm square.

[redir]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

Am I the only person who uses power tools?? I've made hundreds of nuts and saddles, and if I relied in little pieces of sand paper, jigs, and hobby files, I'd have given up long ago.

I start with a chunk of bone I buy at a pet store for a couple of bucks, cut out the approximate size I need using a band saw, carve it to size and shape with my big belt sander, and only use sandpaper for final fitting, smoothing, and polishing. If I am making a compensated saddle, I'll use files.

I use the bench top belt sander to get everything close and then finish it off on the MDF flat sanding board and radius block for the top. I do practically everything by eye and only use a measuring tool at the very end.

Or in other words.. Boom done

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by stormin1155

I start with a chunk of bone I buy at a pet store for a couple of bucks, cut out the approximate size I need using a band saw, carve it to size and shape with my big belt sander.

I am a little lost, bone you buy from a pet store and or shops, still has marrow in it and has never been degreased, I find it takes me a good couple of weeks to prepare raw bone into a useable product.

Steve

[murrmac123]

I wouldn't dream of making my own saddles from raw bone ...any more than I would make my own suits from a sheep's fleece.

Blanks are cheap ...

[stormin1155]

Originally Posted by mirwa

I am a little lost, bone you buy from a pet store and or shops, still has marrow in it and has never been degreased, I find it takes me a good couple of weeks to prepare raw bone into a useable product.

Steve

The bone is completely stripped of marrow and any other icky stuff, then bleached and sterilized. They look like this.

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by mirwa

I am a little lost, bone you buy from a pet store and or shops, still has marrow in it and has never been degreased, I find it takes me a good couple of weeks to prepare raw bone into a useable product.

Steve

The bones I use have not been treated or bleached. The cow femurs that have been given to me have been sitting for years. I cut them in half long ways and let them dry out, sometimes in the sun. Once they're rendered into usable blanks, they work just fine. I can't tell any difference between my "homemade" blanks and the ones from LMI or Stewmac, except my unbleached blanks look much more appropriate on a vintage guitar.

I assume that if the bones I was using were inside of a cow last week, then the material would be much greasier and way more disgusting to work with. And while it is somewhat macabre to chop up bones on my bandsaw, I can create enough blanks to last me a year or more in a single afternoon. I haven't come down with anthrax yet.